Sfdebris.net

youtu.be/Cr-zCsVmR6w

Honestly, yeah. Star Wars as I have seen it over the decades has slowly become less 'Chaotic Evil vs. Lawful Good' and more 'Crazy Evil vs. Stubborn Neutral'. You can only reiterate that so many times. The mainline needs a shot in the arm, if it continues at all. We need nuance, shades of grey. Not every Sith should be Palpatine and not every Jedi should be Yoda. Hell, not every Force-sensitive should be a Jedi or Sith, like how Last Jedi was hinting at a coming paradigm shift away from the old feuds.

I should give SWTOR another shot since I got this new Laptop...

ProfessorDetective wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 6:36 pm
youtu.be/Cr-zCsVmR6w

Honestly, yeah. Star Wars as I have seen it over the decades has slowly become less 'Chaotic Evil vs. Lawful Good' and more 'Crazy Evil vs. Stubborn Neutral'. You can only reiterate that so many times. The mainline needs a shot in the arm, if it continues at all. We need nuance, shades of grey. Not every Sith should be Palpatine and not every Jedi should be Yoda. Hell, not every Force-sensitive should be a Jedi or Sith, like how Last Jedi was hinting at a coming paradigm shift away from the old feuds.

I should give SWTOR another shot since I got this new Laptop...

I'm focusing on this point specifically because it's one that often bugs me in regards to TLJ. I've never been a fan of Lily Orchard's work (mainly because she's often hypocritical, seems to bring up topics just to get attention and often is just repeating something other people said, sometimes word for word (there's actually a comment in one of her other SW videos that were lifted straight from ME from an old deleted review I did on Finn that is word for word what I said)). But I just want to focus on this idea that TLJ was hinting at the idea of moving the series away from it's old paradigm I really can't agree.

I brought this up a while ago but remember back in the 90's when DC tried (and failed) to reimagine Superman into Blue and Red Superman that was so badly received that it is still mocked to this day? The mindset behind this change was that Superman was old and out of date so he needed to be "modified" so it was decided to change Superman was much as possible so he was made into a being a pure energy that could split into two.

The problem was this change was stupid and didn't actually change anything. All it did was give Sups a new look and power set and a change in personality KINDA as he was still Clark so the "Problems" and ideas of the old Sups was still there but nothing else hand changed. And what's even more damning is that the idea of rebuilding Superman had been done before and since and had been done better.

Superman vs. The Elite, What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way and All-Star Superman had all taken Superman apart and put him back together that showed why the character works as he is for almost 100 years... great, now I feel old. But jokes aside the reason Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, The X-Men, Fantastic 4 and other superheroes work as they do is because they're simplistic. Lex Luthor is not this good person trying to do the right thing he's selfish jerk who wants nothing more then to make the work recognize him as the greatest thing that will ever happen in the history of ever and anything that says otherwise is stupid and wrong.

The Dark Side is corruption the Light Side is compassion. Dark is not evil and light is not good but those who seek to benefit only themselves damn the fall out to those around them and those who use their power in defense of others even if the world damns them for being "unrealistic" or "stupid".

The problem I have with "Let the past die" concept (which is something Rian Johnson himself has made a big deal out of) is that it ignores one of the most important lessons of all time "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

Indeed in TLJ DOESN'T cast aside the old because Luke's entire character arc is just his arc from Return of the Jedi only with Luke now being a grumpy old man. No seriously, Luke's arc is to recognize the flaws of the Jedi and embrace the true nature of the Jedi by refusing a lightsaber duel. Instead of letting the past die TLJ is just doing what was done before but with an alter paint job in the hopes no one notices.

And that leads back to my point, the Dark Side doesn't need to be made more interesting like Orchard and Johnson says but rather, we need writers who will actually use the premise of the Dark Side well instead of just rehashing old ideas while trying to pass them off as new ones.

And if they want to try new things with Star Wars then take old ideas and look at them from a different angle. To look at She-Ra and Adora's arc. Adora's arc in the series SEEMS to be that of the standard hero journey as she is asked or told to give up all she wants for the good of all and that wanting things for herself is selfish and wrong. But the finale of the series takes this and flips it on its head by asking a few simple questions "is Adora wanting happiness wrong? Why must she die for the good of others if there is a chance of her coming out of this alive WITHOUT giving up a future for herself?"

The Dark Side is corruption but connections to others are not a weakness. It's Anakin's connection to his son that allows him to make the right choose and save his son and Luke's desire to save his father that saves the universe. Timothy Zahn took this idea and expanded on it in many of his Star Wars stories and showed that those on the side of the Dark Side can be redeemed by changing the rules of the Jedi while adhering to what the Jedi truly stand for while The Book of Boba Fett and the Disney Sequel Trilogy discarded it just so it could do it all over again.

The same applies to other SW works as KOTOR2, TOR and the aforementioned Zahn books as well as the Clone Wars and even the Prequel Trilogy and the Original Trilogy all took the ideas of the Force and really examined it to make an argument for how things are the way they are and asked questions like does that make it right or can it be changed. TDST, Dark Empire and others just try to redo what everything and keep trying to paint it as they are moving forward but in truth are trapped in the past.

But that's just my take on it.

One key problem is that Lucas tried to combine classic Western ideas about good and evil, including color associations, with classic Eastern ideas about degrees of a spectrum where all the states are vitally important. Yang and Yin are intrinsically related, cannot be separated, and are both vital to existence - but humans have a tendency towards yang and must be urged towards balance. So Taoist thinking emphasizes yin over yang, and Buddhist thought likewise.

Okay I was ready to trash that video pretty fast. So anything not on jedi and ONLY jedi is whiney teenager angst or some such? But hey the whole senate voting in an emperor was not a jedi sith thing it was great because it had the nuance of being not a sith thing.

Nice contradictions.

Winter, my problem with let the past die is, they aren't. We get too much not Tatooine, not Mos Eisely cantina, not the Death Star. Then we get things like not Hoth. This is not letting go of the past, it is retreading the past, badly.
That is not to say I do not get your point about history. But I have my own irritation with the attitude.

I do find it weird, if she really believe it, why did she makes that the stance of the villain?

Nealithi wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 12:55 am Okay I was ready to trash that video pretty fast. So anything not on jedi and ONLY jedi is whiney teenager angst or some such? But hey the whole senate voting in an emperor was not a jedi sith thing it was great because it had the nuance of being not a sith thing.

Nice contradictions.

Winter, my problem with let the past die is, they aren't. We get too much not Tatooine, not Mos Eisely cantina, not the Death Star. Then we get things like not Hoth. This is not letting go of the past, it is retreading the past, badly.
That is not to say I do not get your point about history. But I have my own irritation with the attitude.

That's actually what I basically said just not as long and as complicated, anyone reading my post and finding it hard to follow Nealithi just summed it up nicely, thanks!

Nealithi wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 12:55 am Okay I was ready to trash that video pretty fast. So anything not on jedi and ONLY jedi is whiney teenager angst or some such? But hey the whole senate voting in an emperor was not a jedi sith thing it was great because it had the nuance of being not a sith thing.

Nice contradictions.

Lily is an uncreative hack who believes she must be the smartest person in the room. She believes anything she doesn't like is whiny teenager angst because she doesn't like it. The only reason she gets any attention is because she bashed the brony community when it was a thing.

Lily also seems to not understand there's a difference between killing someone in self defense or the heat of battle and murdering someone in cold blood. It's kind of disturbing whenever it comes up in her videos. There's a reason we have laws against vigilantism and policies against political assassination.

Al-1701 wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 11:01 am

Nealithi wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 12:55 am Okay I was ready to trash that video pretty fast. So anything not on jedi and ONLY jedi is whiney teenager angst or some such? But hey the whole senate voting in an emperor was not a jedi sith thing it was great because it had the nuance of being not a sith thing.

Nice contradictions.

Lily is an uncreative hack who believes she must be the smartest person in the room. She believes anything she doesn't like is whiny teenager angst because she doesn't like it. The only reason she gets any attention is because she bashed the brony community when it was a thing.

Lily also seems to not understand there's a difference between killing someone in self defense or the heat of battle and murdering someone in cold blood. It's kind of disturbing whenever it comes up in her videos. There's a reason we have laws against vigilantism and policies against political assassination.

I've seen none of that, ever. She'll calls herself a dumbass and a bimbo near constantly (apparently has a degradation fetish), her hated works tend to be the Airbender-chasing, serialized, fantasy adventure shows (Steven Universe, Dragon Prince, Tangled) that have been a bit over common while her loved ones are fluffy slice-of-life shows with LGBT+ rep (Craig of the Creek, Molly McGee, Loud House), her brony bashing only really started after a few major fandom figures got ousted as sex pests (ToonKritic, to name one) and many others defended said pests, and... Okay, yeah, she can be rather bloodthirsty when neo-nazis come up. Can't completely blame a trans-bi Native girl from returning the hate, though.

Frustration wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 9:35 pm One key problem is that Lucas tried to combine classic Western ideas about good and evil, including color associations, with classic Eastern ideas about degrees of a spectrum where all the states are vitally important. Yang and Yin are intrinsically related, cannot be separated, and are both vital to existence - but humans have a tendency towards yang and must be urged towards balance. So Taoist thinking emphasizes yin over yang, and Buddhist thought likewise.

The thing that wuxia and magical Chinese literature/film is FULL of evil sorcerers as well as Sith-style wizards as well as corrupted martial artists.

The thing is they're portrayed as out of balance versus Yin or Yang.

Yes, but Lucas has explicitly rejected the idea that the Jedi are about balance; he keeps insisting that they be the 'white-hats' a la a traditional Western.