Sfdebris.net

It's hard to believe that it's been 8 years since this moment happened.


youtu.be/3AJ0mb-2bdw

It's rather amazing and strangely funny how such small gestures can change so much. I mean, Korra and Asami don't even kiss in this moment, they just hold hands and gaze into each others eyes and yet this is a moment that forever altered how LGBT romance was handled in Western Animation.

Since then shows have gotten more bold with SS Romances where some are even written partly or Entirely around two people of the same sex having romantic feelings for one another and have MASSIVE Fanbases. We have new classics like She-Ra and the Princesses of Power, The Owl House and Steven Universe and the creators of those shows all admitted that Korrasami was a major factor in allowing them to have such relationships in their show.

After 8 years Korrasami remains the most popular ship in the Avatar Canon, even beating out Zutara which is literally the poster-child for Fan-Preferred Couple over on TV Tropes. Even the other first openly SS romance in the Rise and Shadow of Kyoshi, Kyoshi and Rangi (which was WAAAY more explicated in its romance) isn't as popular as Korra and Asami. Their first comic together in Turf Wars SOLD OUT when it was released in comic stores (I only got my copy by buying the display comic because it was the ONLY One for miles around).

So, yeah, Korrasami is awesome and has already stood the test of time. Sure other shows went further but that's partly down to the ending of The Legend of Korra which was almost universally praised by everyone at the time and is still loved today.


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I am definitely not the target audience for that moment, but that having been said I honestly found it to be pretty poor. A fundamental problem with it is that it just comes out of absolutely nowhere. There was nothing done to set it up or give any indication that these characters had any kind of romantic connection or interest, even in the very episode it occurs in.

Introducing my wife to Star Trek with DS9, and then TNG, an then TOS, we eventually got to Voyager and eventually to the end of the series when Seven and Chakotay become a thing and her immediate reaction was, "what? That makes no sense. Where did that come from?" The Korra/Asami thing was like that, but worse. It was like if in the last episode Harry and Janeway gazed longingly into one another's eyes. Regardless of what one might think of the relationship potential itself, the actualization of it just feels so random and, frankly, token. I'd think this would be especially unpopular by anyone excited about SS romances in media because it kindof plays into one of the negative stereotypes people have about them - that they tend to be promiscuous or nonchalant.

I apologize "in advance" as I'm not really trying to be a downer about someone's positive thought, but in the spirit of discussion I just don't understand the praise for a moment that felt like less than an afterthought to me. Reylo, for instance, while having its fans, has largely been criticized for a lot of things, including its suddenness, but to me even that makes a heck of a lot more sense than that scene at the end of Korra.

Lazerlike42 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:49 am I am definitely not the target audience for that moment, but that having been said I honestly found it to be pretty poor. A fundamental problem with it is that it just comes out of absolutely nowhere. There was nothing done to set it up or give any indication that these characters had any kind of romantic connection or interest, even in the very episode it occurs in.

I can't agree and even if that WAS the case it's by no means the only offender.

Sokka and Yue, in a relationship after one episode. Sokka and Suki, in a relationship after two episodes. Bolin and Opel, in a relationship after one episode. Bolin and Eska, in a relationship after one episode. Mako and Asami, in a relationship after one episode. Bolin and Korra, the latter has a crush on her after one episode. Mako and Korra, in love after one episode. Kai and Jinora, in a relationship after one episode.

And then we have Aang and Katara along with Zuko and Mai... Oh boy.

The the latter's case Aang is in love with Katara after one episode while Katara only shows interest in him when the script says she does and often for rather shallow reasons. Then we get to Book 3 and they spend their last three episodes arguing with one another, yelling at how the other doesn't understand their pain and Aang trying to pressure Katara into a relationship with him. And then at the end of the series, without resolving ANY of this Aang and Katara are now a couple. Again, their last conversation with one another was him yelling at her for not understanding his pain and storming off and then they just get together.

And and Zuko and Mai's side it's honestly kinda worse. Zuko never once mentions Mai and Mai only talks about Zuko once in a blink and you miss it moment. We have them interacting during when they were kids... For ten seconds, and it's quickly forgotten about. I honestly unsure if Zuko even knew Mai's name as I'm pretty sure he doesn't say it until episode 4 in season 3.

And there are undercurrents of the relationship being kinda horrible. Zuko opens up and tells Mai how he's feeling, Mai brushes it aside in favor of making herself feel better. Zuko tries to be kind and get Mai things and she gets angry at him. Zuko goes to do the right thing, Mai is angry because he left her and brushes aside the world he's trying to save.

As for Korra and Asami, while there's not a whole lot in the first two seasons and the two were little more then a crack pairing by season 3 they EXPLODED in popularity which was helped by several things like them eating next to each other, training together, fighting alongside each other and Asami being the only person was willing to show her greatest fears to.

I remember fans already getting onboard with the Korrasami ship due to a few black and white leaked images of the 3rd season and I came in saying that it would never happen and that we wouldn't so much see the two hold hands let alone get anything romantic. And this is why I'm not in the stock market.

And yet about midway through Season 3 I was onboard this ship too and by the end of it I honestly had to wonder if something would come of it when we got their last moment alone together in season 3.

Skip to 6:53


youtu.be/6pdUQdndw4I

This was the point that most fans started to wonder "Is it really going to be canon?"

And the more we got in Season 4 the more it seemed like it was going to happen. Korra only writing to Asami, Asami saying how she couldn't wait to see Korra again, the two's reunion, how well they fought together despite all those years apart. Or how Asami comfort Korra when she was uncertain if she, as the Avatar, was even truly needed. It's not much but in all honesty, it's more then what we got with the other couples in this show. All most couples in this show need are a few seconds together and they are now soulmates.

Is Korra and Asami's relationship to subtle. Maybe but again, it's more then most other couples in this show and at least said relationship is healthier then some I can name *Cough* Kataang and Maiko *Cough*.

And as for Raylo, I can't even begin to figure how that makes sense. In one scene "You're a Monster, I hate you" in the next scene "He can be redeemed with LOVE!!!" Yeah just ignore all the people he's killed or hurt like your childhood hero and best friend. What beaten so badly he was in a coma at the end of the last film?

I respect your opinion and I hope you can respect mine.

I do think that while it broke ground and convinced executives it was safe that it already doesn't really hold up. There's subtext and queercoding but it's never directly acknowledged until the finale. Compared to newer shows like She-ra, Owl House, Dragon Age Absolution, or the current Willow series that just unapologetically have queer couples nbd it seems rather quaint. Which is freaking astonishing for how fast it happened.

I do respect your enjoyment of these characters, but I nevertheless don't agree about the other relationships in the franchise. There is clear romantic subtext shown between all of these characters prior to their relationships "kicking off." Are their friendships/relationships imperfect before they become official? Sure. Have some of them argued beforehand? Sure. Yet these things are how human relationships work. It's common, both in the real world and in fiction, for two people to do this sort of stuff before a relationship begins. In fact it's particularly common in fiction for two characters to argue and be testy or to be at one another's throats as a way of showing that there's romantic tension between them. How often do we even have scenes where two characters are fighting angrily only to suddenly grab each other and start kissing?

My point is that I don't see any of the arguments raised about the other relationships in the franchise to be particularly compelling. We might look at them and say that there is something unhealthy about these relationships or something silly, but nevertheless there's no question that they all fit either real-world or TV-trope criteria for the kind of romantic tension that leads up to a relationship coming out in the open.

One way to put it is to say that when I watched Avatar and Korra for the first time, and when my wife did, and when my young children (all under 6 currently) did for the first time, we all picked up on the fact that these characters were romantically interested in one another long before anything made it explicit, whereas going into Korra my wife and I already knew about the moment with Korra and Asami and spent most of the series, especially the last season, actively looking out to see the interest between them develop and actively looking for character moments or other foreshadowing for the ending and even still we looked at each other at the end very shocked by how out of nowhere it felt.

Lazerlike42 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:43 am I do respect your enjoyment of these characters, but I nevertheless don't agree about the other relationships in the franchise. There is clear romantic subtext shown between all of these characters prior to their relationships "kicking off." Are their friendships/relationships imperfect before they become official? Sure. Have some of them argued beforehand? Sure. Yet these things are how human relationships work. It's common, both in the real world and in fiction, for two people to do this sort of stuff before a relationship begins. In fact it's particularly common in fiction for two characters to argue and be testy or to be at one another's throats as a way of showing that there's romantic tension between them. How often do we even have scenes where two characters are fighting angrily only to suddenly grab each other and start kissing?

My point is that I don't see any of the arguments raised about the other relationships in the franchise to be particularly compelling. We might look at them and say that there is something unhealthy about these relationships or something silly, but nevertheless there's no question that they all fit either real-world or TV-trope criteria for the kind of romantic tension that leads up to a relationship coming out in the open.

One way to put it is to say that when I watched Avatar and Korra for the first time, and when my wife did, and when my young children (all under 6 currently) did for the first time, we all picked up on the fact that these characters were romantically interested in one another long before anything made it explicit, whereas going into Korra my wife and I already knew about the moment with Korra and Asami and spent most of the series, especially the last season, actively looking out to see the interest between them develop and actively looking for character moments or other foreshadowing for the ending and even still we looked at each other at the end very shocked by how out of nowhere it felt.

I see just as much if not more subtext and romantic undertones between Korra and Asami then other relationships in this series.

Let's look at Sokka & Suki and imagine for a moment that they were the same gender. Change nothing else and have Suki kiss Sokka at the end of the episode. I LIKE Sokka and Suki as a couple but they spend, at most, 7 minutes together in one episode and it ends yet there isn't much in the way of development in terms of romance.

Same thing with Sokka and Yue, they spend 10 minutes together before Sokka asks her out on a date and she kisses him. I fail to see how these relationships have clearer romantic subtext compared to Korrasami. I ask, not with anger or frustration, but in simple curiosity. Korrasami quickly became popular over night to the point that it DOMINATED everything Korra related before Book 3 was even close to being done, it was something most people picked up on.

I'm not saying that you're wrong to think what you think, this is the opinionated guides after all but I ask you to look at the other relationships and ask, is there really that much more time and subtext between these other relationships? Zuko never mentions Mai, never shows that he thinks of her in the first or second season and the one time they spend together is quickly overshadowed by the story of Zuko's mom and they only get 30 seconds and we only see a crush from Mai's side.

Korra wrote to Asami and only Asami. Asami was willing to leave Republic City to be with Korra to help her recover and said that nothing the same without her and when they reunited despite a few issues (which they worked out instead of just letting it hang there) they were a team that was completely in sync with each other. Plus the blush, Asami getting Korra tea, and helping Korra get over her self doubt (with Tenzin's help) along with their developing friendship in Book 3 I still hold that Korrasami is the ONLY ship that had any proper build up instead of getting together or falling for each other after only one episode.

Maybe it's just because I'm a trans lesbian but I saw Korra and Asami's relationship in a more romantic light as Book 3 went on and couldn't help but notice how there seemed to be more signs that the two were becoming something more then friends. There was a bond that Korra didn't have with Mako or Bolin or even her parents. Asami was something other then Korra's best friend and, again, I wasn't alone in seeing this. Skip to 0:35


youtu.be/Q3s0YqzYRrI

And that's ain't it kid.


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youtu.be/MbFKyzO-1ow

This is just my opinion but I felt more passion for this relationship then even Zutara and in it's not just the fact that it's same sex. I love this relationship and it changed so much. Is it as bold or as open as other romances in other shows or even Avatar, not really, but it's special. It felt more real. These weren't two characters getting together because the executives demanded a romance so the creators just slapped them together like Seven and Whatshisname or the forced Romance of Wednesday or Reylo (seriously Rey WTF happened off screen that convinced you this man child was romance material in TLJ?).

Bryke wanted to do more but couldn't. Nick was supportive but would only let them go so far and, well, I think that worked because it wasn't the Love At First Sight of Yesteryear it was something that happened more naturally. They fell in love because they got to know each other and were there for each other in a way no one else was.

If you don't see, that's fine I'm trying to change anyone's mind, I just love this relationship and it's so awesome how it not only happened but changed everything. So, see things as you see them but for me, this is THE relationship of the series and, IMMHO a MASSIVE improvement over most of the relationships in the show before.

December 19th is a blessed holiday.

Lazerlike42 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:49 am I am definitely not the target audience for that moment, but that having been said I honestly found it to be pretty poor. A fundamental problem with it is that it just comes out of absolutely nowhere.

Take your straight goggles off.
personally i shipped them since the racing scene

hammerofglass wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:30 am I do think that while it broke ground and convinced executives it was safe that it already doesn't really hold up. There's subtext and queercoding but it's never directly acknowledged until the finale. Compared to newer shows like She-ra, Owl House, Dragon Age Absolution, or the current Willow series that just unapologetically have queer couples nbd it seems rather quaint. Which is freaking astonishing for how fast it happened.

Korrasami crawled so that those shows could fly. It's worth recognizing where the ancestry of queer animation came from.

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:33 am

hammerofglass wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:30 am I do think that while it broke ground and convinced executives it was safe that it already doesn't really hold up. There's subtext and queercoding but it's never directly acknowledged until the finale. Compared to newer shows like She-ra, Owl House, Dragon Age Absolution, or the current Willow series that just unapologetically have queer couples nbd it seems rather quaint. Which is freaking astonishing for how fast it happened.

Korrasami crawled so that those shows could fly. It's worth recognizing where the ancestry of queer animation came from.

Oh absolutely. I was more commenting on how fast it happened than anything. Cutting edge to old fashioned in less than 8 years.