Sfdebris.net

As I mentioned before I have mixed feelings on HBO's The Last of Us. It has it's moments but I just felt that it changed to much from the game and many of those changes I just didn't care for and the one thing I felt was just straight up bad, not needed and added nothing was Kathleen Coghlan during the Kansas City Two Parter.

Kathleen is completely original character made for the show and I have no idea what the writers were thinking when they made her. In the game this part of the story, which is sent in Pittsburgh not Kansas City, there is no character like this as the city has been over run by hunters who kill anyone who enter the city. They weren't revolutionists or rebels they were just people who had turned to hunting people in order to survive (they were cannabises or anything they just stole food and weapons from anyone who entered).

I get that changes had to be made in a show to account for a show like structure but there was nothing wrong with how it was presented in the game. Henry and Sam didn't need to be part of this group and outside of one odd bit, that being the fact the hunters were still hunting the protagonists after they left, this didn't really alter the story.

But the worst part is Kathleen herself. We're suppose to believe that this idiot somehow led a revolution after her brother's death and is somehow keeping everyone in line through fear. I cannot believe this for one minute as Melanie Lynskey isn't convincing in the role. She's giving a good performance and I buy her as a broken soul out for revenge but as a cruel dictator I was not sold even slightly. I could not bring myself to believe that anyone would follow her or that she could lead people out of a parking lot. Not helping matters is that NO One aside from her right hand man likes her and she makes no good choices during the story. And even worse her second-in-command is constantly questioning her choices (not in front of anyone but STILL) which further cements the idea that this isn't a competent leader.

I never once bought her as a threat both due to Lynskey's performance and how she was written.

Compare Kathleen to Catra or Azula, these are two people who manage to get people to follow them and are Hell Bent on their own personal goals at the cost of all those close to them but we buy them as a threat because despite their personal issues they are competent both as strategists and as combatants. Helping this is the performance both both actors as Grey DeLisle and AJ Michalka who play Azula and Catra respectfully give the sense that these are people who are just barely holding onto their sanity but are closer to the edge of madness and despair then they or those close to them realize.

But Kathleen often comes off as being more confused and out of her depth and her lust for revenge comes off as so hollow that I found myself laughing at her which just made me more annoyed.

And then there's the final nail in the coffin the fact that she adds nothing to the story.

You could cut her out and her entire quest for revenge and it would change nothing and I know this is the case because the game exists and her absence there only makes the game stronger.

I hated every scene she was in and I would rather have spent time focusing on literally anything else.

Yup, there are some good additions to the show, like the intro with the two scientists from the pilot, a bit more backstory on Joel's daughter, the scenes in Jakarta and the old couple in the log cabin.

But Kathleen? She's by far the worst and useless addition to the show. The character has no charisma, no leadership qualities, if anything, every time she talks to her men she comes across as a bystander rather than their leader. It's like she doesn't know those guys. Also, there's something wrong about that jacket she's wearing, she looks like a kid wearing her parents' clothes or something. I just can't her seriously in any way. And I don't see any reason why anyone else.

It gets worse since her presence ate up any precious time that could have been used to further expand Joel and Ellie's relationship (even though that too suffered from Bella's limited acting range, but whatever, I'd rather sit through that 10 times over than listen to Kathleen just one more time).

Kathleen is a good example of what's wrong with the show: the main character(s) of the show become recurring characters in their own trimmed story.

Winter wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:56 am Compare Kathleen to Catra or Azula, these are two people who manage to get people to follow them and are Hell Bent on their own personal goals at the cost of all those close to them but we buy them as a threat because despite their personal issues they are competent both as strategists and as combatants. Helping this is the performance both both actors as Grey DeLisle and AJ Michalka who play Azula and Catra respectfully give the sense that these are people who are just barely holding onto their sanity but are closer to the edge of madness and despair then they or those close to them realize

Catra betrayed the cause of evil and will never be as cool as the one true mistress of the Horde she should have been.

*ahem*

But I get what they were doing with Kathleen and I absolutely have no problem with the character (except ONE problem which I will bring up later). Kathleen is the soccer mom revolutionary. She talks like a Kindergarten teacher and basically treats everyone like they're school children. It's a great change of pace from a wannabe Che or Hitler. Many revolutions have been built on the back of "ordinary people" and "folksy" people who proceed to inspire by the insinuation they are one of us.

I also note, Winter, you miss that Kathleen is an enormous failure. I mean, she could not have utterly fucked up more if she had been killed by FEDRA because at least Kansas City would have survived. Kathleen not only dies pointlessly, she sacrifices all of her troops (who died protecting her) for the purposes of murdering a little boy and his guardian. An action that results in a massive horde of Infected heading into the now-completely undefended Kansas City to slaughter everyone. In a show that explicitly compares FEDRA to the Nazis, she actually makes the fascists look better.

Wow.

The problem with a Catra or Azula character is that such a thing would not happen under either of them. They would not be so utterly fucking foolish as to fail to protect their civilization against the Infected because they have military experience despite being teenage girls, even to the point of being prodigies. Kathleen is someone who became the hero of the revolution because she was the brother of their leader and told them to engage in their most depraved, brutal, and ruthless impulses. She became the leader because whenever asked for mercy, she said, NO MERCY.

And that fed the beast.

The only problem I have with her is the fact that she is telegraphing something meant to be a surprise, which is that Fireflies are BAD people. It's only unconsciously, they're not Fireflies after all, but it's laying the groundwork for something that shouldn't have been in the front of our minds.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:54 pm But I get what they were doing with Kathleen and I absolutely have no problem with the character (except ONE problem which I will bring up later). Kathleen is the soccer mom revolutionary. She talks like a Kindergarten teacher and basically treats everyone like they're school children. It's a great change of pace from a wannabe Che or Hitler. Many revolutions have been built on the back of "ordinary people" and "folksy" people who proceed to inspire by the insinuation they are one of us.

I'd be fine with that if this was a comedy but this show is trying to present itself as a serious drama and I do not buy that a army of ruthless revolutionaries would even consider following her for one day. Again, no one likes this person and she has done nothing but screw up at everything she does. The show is saying that this is someone whom every one is afraid of which is counter by the fact that she isn't intimidating and gives off the sense that she would be dead in 10 seconds without people who were more competent then her helping her out and the only one we see how does like her is constantly questioning her choices.

I also note, Winter, you miss that Kathleen is an enormous failure.

Dude the whole point of this post was me being annoyed that someone who is not qualified to lead is and wouldn't last long.

The very first thing I said about her is

"We're suppose to believe that this idiot somehow led a revolution after her brother's death and is somehow keeping everyone in line through fear. I cannot believe this for one minute as Melanie Lynskey isn't convincing in the role. She's giving a good performance and I buy her as a broken soul out for revenge but as a cruel dictator I was not sold even slightly. I could not bring myself to believe that anyone would follow her or that she could lead people out of a parking lot."

Let's head over to the Avatar Novels and spoilers if you haven't read them yet but let's look at the main antagonist of the first book Jianzhu.

In Rise and Shadow of Kyoshi Jianzhu is referred to as one of the few competent leaders of the Earth Kingdom and the only reason it hasn't fallen into chaos and that Governor like Te are what's wrong with the Earth Kingdom. But when you look at the actual events of the book with ALL the information that is given to use thanks to Jianzhu being a POV Character we see that the truth is very different. Jianzhu is a complete and utter fuck up. He fails at everything he does and causes several problems without ever solving any.

What's more Te, the incompetent Governor that everyone complains about, was put in charge of BY Jianzhu because he was easy to control and Jianzhu could care less that if he sucked at his job. In fact when Te asks Jianzhu on how to be a better Governor Jianzhu regards this as useless and meaningless.

Like Kathleen he is obsessed with a singular goal and does everything in his power to achieve that goal even as those same methods drive him to lose that which he longs to have. Like Kathleen he ignores good advice and common sense and acts as if everyone around him is an idiot even when it's clear that he is often outmatched by those same people he views as stupid.

Jianzhu is someone I buy as a threat and a complex character while Kathleen is someone who I wouldn't buy as a threat to a litter of Kittens.

A villain MUST be intimidating and intriguing. This is someone who we must buy as a threat even if they suck at everything they do. Jianzhu is an idiot who's only gotten as far as he has by convincing everyone around him that he is NOT a complete fuck up who's only talent is hurting people and screwing over the one job he has. Kathleen is an idiot who's only gotten as far as she did because the script says she does.

To put it another way, in Mass Effect 3 we loose to Kai Leng ONLY because the developers say we do even when I personally beat him in about 30 seconds ON INSANITY! He is a joke villain that the game wants us to see as a real threat even though he never posses a real challenge to anyone. Kathleen is that kind of character to me, she is a villain who only gets as far as she does because the writers says she does and not for any other reason.

And Catra is Amazing as a Redeemed Hero!

What I'm saying is Winter that Kathleen is a character whose end point is to show that Firefly-style revolutionaries always end in failure. So we have the premise that we need a character who will not only fail but fail in such a way that EVERYONE UNDER HER COMMAND will die. She has to not only be incompetent but INCREDIBLY incompetent.

An utter and complete failure.

And these sorts of utter incompetents have existed many times in real life.

You basically want someone who won't end up in the place she ends up.

And in RL, plenty of revolutions are taken over by family members. Because humanity is weird that way.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:18 am What I'm saying is Winter that Kathleen is a character whose end point is to show that Firefly-style revolutionaries always end in failure. So we have the premise that we need a character who will not only fail but fail in such a way that EVERYONE UNDER HER COMMAND will die. She has to not only be incompetent but INCREDIBLY incompetent.

An utter and complete failure.

And these sorts of utter incompetents have existed many times in real life.

You basically want someone who won't end up in the place she ends up.

And in RL, plenty of revolutions are taken over by family members. Because humanity is weird that way.

I understand that but what I'm saying is that I never bought that in this character. Again look at Jianzhu, he's pretty much the same as Kathleen, a complete failure who believe that violence is the one and only response to any situation who has taken it upon himself to be the next great leader but is in not cut out for it. Jianzhu is not someone who should have gained power and is no better or even worse then those he condemns as villains.

And just like Kathleen everyone under his command either leaves him or dies.

But what makes Jianzhu a great villain is that he manages to present this sense of competence that he doesn't actually possess but is also deadly. I don't mind that Kathleen is incompetent, I don't mind that she's a failure and I don't mind that she's gets everyone around her killed due to her poor leadership. I mind that the show is trying to present her as this Terrifying Monster who everyone fears but she herself is unconvincing as that.

She's not intimidating and is impossible to take seriously. In a world like the Last of Us she would be eaten alive (possibly literally) by those around her because, again, no one likes her and no one thinks she's cut out for leading them.

The idea is sound, but the way the show executes it is, IMO, terrible.