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Celebrating Pride Month: Dreadnought vs. Homelander

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:52 am
by Winter
Kind of a sequel to my Celebrating Pride Month: Jessica Jones vs. Sovereign bit only this time it's less of a rant and more of a observation.

I've mentioned before that I found it interesting that Danny is one of the few Superman Expies that ISN'T evil. Personally I've grown tired of the "What if Superman Was EVIL" idea for a while now and frankly didn't much care for it when it was originally brought up. Hell I didn't care for it when the DC Animated Universe did it in the Cadmus arc as it felt like Superman was being needlessly aggressive to the point that I thought the show was going to reveal that someone was screwing with his mind again or he was replaced with an Evil Version of himself.

I'm not against the idea as a whole, the DCAU has one of the best examples with the Justice Lord 2 parter, but it has been over done and most writers just tend to default to "Just make Superman Basically a Nazi in everything but name" my making all of them raciest, sexist, homophobic (likely while making him a closest gay who does horrible things to teenage boys) or just making him Jason Voorhees only with less personality.

Arguably the most famous, or infamous rather, take on this idea is Homelander from The Boys. Personally I'm not interested in The Boys mostly because of the source material being Garth Ennis' not so subtle Take That against Superheroes which is a genre he openly hates (and frankly his dislike of Captain America is petty and childish given that he's claimed it's an insult to real soldiers and veterans when Cap was CREATED by Two Veteran Soldiers and is LIKED by real Soldiers and Veterans).

However, Homelander is interesting as Ennis has stated that he actually likes Superman but one thing I remember being said (and I can't find the clip and can't remember if Ennis even said this) is that if someone like Superman did exist he would be a violent sociopath and that no one with that much power could be good.

The problem I often have with Evil Supermen is that the writers often rig the game so that there is no way for Superman to end up evil by altering his origin story. If I remember correctly Homelander's backstory was that he was created in a lab and wasn't given any real love or affection and was abused as much as humanly possible and this is the first real problem.

The reason Clark is such a good person was because he was raised by good people who loved him and valued him as a person and instilled the core ideas that are at the heart of his character. He is, as Chuck, Linkara and others have pointed out, the most Human member of the Justice League. There's that this scene from All-Star Superman -

Image

Is seen as The Greatest Superman Moment Ever. Superman is dying and yet he still takes the time to tell a girl about to commit suicide that she is stronger then she thinks she is and that things are never as bad as they seem.

THIS is what many writers don't understand about the character. He's not a god and he'd be the first to tell you that he's just someone with great powers and uses those powers to help in a way that cannot be done by normal people.

As weird as this sounds but Frank Miller actually summed up Superman perfectly when he wrote a origin story for him a few years ago. Superman isn't a judge, jury and executioner. He's a fire fighter. He helps out people who need it and comes only when he's needed. He only goes where he is needed and will do everything he can to avoid hurting anyone, even his enemies.

Thus we come to Danny. Danny is different kind of Superman Question, that question being "What if Superman was a transgirl?"

What's interesting about Danny in contrast with Homelander is that Danny DIDN'T have a good life before becoming a Superhero. Her father was emotionally and physically abusive towards her and her mother, whom was overall supportive, allowed this to happen. And when she got her powers her problems didn't just go away and saw the flaws of the Superheros she always looked up to and that many of them have dark secrets or are more interested in getting good publicity.

However, what's interesting about this is that while the Legion (the Dreadnought equivalent of the Justice League or the Avengers) is flawed we see plenty of people who live up to the idea of what it means to be a hero and see in Danny the potential to become a great hero herself. And Danny herself is a flawed person as she finds she likes the violence of being a Superhero, likes the fight, likes being able to use her powers against those who wronged her or are just a good means of letting her anger out on them.

But what's great is that when Danny is forced to confront these flaws she's ashamed or herself. For not living up to what it means to be a Superhero, for realizing that she's becoming what she's suppose to be standing against and for failing to measure up to the name Dreadnought. But she doesn't just dwell on these flaws, she instead works to improve herself. To get help, to step away from her duties until she is better and to grow and change.

And what's great about these books is that, unlike The Boys or like minded comics or TV shows that damn Superheroes for the crime of existing Dreadnought instead goes "If we're going to be damned let's be damned for what we really are."

One of the reasons I love Dreadnought so much is the fact that it's take on "Superman" as a flawed but ultimately good person who does what she can to live up to the legacy left to her but to also improve herself when she's forced to confront her flaws.

Re: Celebrating Pride Month: Dreadnought vs. Homelander

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2023 7:31 am
by hammerofglass
At this point "evil Superman" has been so done to death and so ubiquitous for so long that "what if a good person had the powers of Superman and was not corrupted by them" feels like a subversive idea on its own.

Re: Celebrating Pride Month: Dreadnought vs. Homelander

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2023 9:17 am
by ProfessorDetective
hammerofglass wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2023 7:31 am At this point "evil Superman" has been so done to death and so ubiquitous for so long that "what if a good person had the powers of Superman and was not corrupted by them" feels like a subversive idea on its own.
Which is why the new Adult Swim show looks like a breath of fresh air.

Re: Celebrating Pride Month: Dreadnought vs. Homelander

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2023 9:18 am
by CharlesPhipps
It's why I created Ultragod as a subversion for my Supervillainy Saga books. I went with the idea of a Black Superman from the 1930s who had been consistently doing the right thing with his omnipotent Green Lantern-esque powers and agelessness. It was interesting to have the protagonist be someone who had such an enormous chip on his shoulders deal with someone who had obviously grown up a lot rougher than he had and still maintained his optimism as well as passionate idealism. I think I mentally based him on Avery Brooks.

Similarly, there's Lodestar from Villain's Code, who is the Superman EXPY of the setting but is actually based on "What if Lynda Carter was Superwoman?" Which is an interesting take. She's a figurw who is every bit as good, righteous, and kind as you'd expect but also deals with a setting that is full of assholes on both sides of superheroism. She even got the original Justice League analog dissolved because they were racist homophobes. It was her doing that redeemed the setting's most terrifying supervillain.

Re: Celebrating Pride Month: Dreadnought vs. Homelander

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2023 3:05 pm
by Fuzzy Necromancer
I absolutely love Dreadnought to death. Danny does a wonderful job of being a nearly invincible character who you nevertheless want to shelter and protect.

Re: Celebrating Pride Month: Dreadnought vs. Homelander

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2023 5:39 pm
by Winter
Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2023 3:05 pm I absolutely love Dreadnought to death. Danny does a wonderful job of being a nearly invincible character who you nevertheless want to shelter and protect.
One of the most powerful scenes from the book to me is the bit where Danny's dad is yelling at her when she comes out as Trans and she reveals that her hearing in one ear is (or was I can't remember if it got better after her transition) worse on one side compared to the other. Her rather has been yelling at her like this for years and she would always look away from him which is why it got so bad. And here she is, the most powerful Superhero in the world doing the same thing as before because having powers doesn't make immune to abuse.

I've mentioned before that a sign of a bad story is it will bring up anything that is considered a hot topic subject (regardless if it's a real world issue or just something that is out of character) just for the sake of bringing it up before dropping it completely because the story isn't actually interested in talking about it and instead just wants you to talk about it. Again, to use my favorite punching bag, in The Last Jedi the film brings up the subject of Slavery and War Profiteering but doesn't really say anything about it other then "These awful things are Bad".

By contrast a Good story will take the time to really explore these subjects for a good long while. Odd as this may sound Blazing Saddles is a great example of this as the film does explore racism. It doesn't just say Racism is bad it goes over WHY it's bad by giving us a compelling main character and putting him in a position of authority and showing him as the kindhearted and fair man he is who is more clever then the villains he fights who underestimate him solely because he's black. Yes it's a parody of Westerns but it treats the subject of racism with complete seriousness in its own Mel Brooks-y sort of way (though personally I don't care for the bit where they completely shatter the 4th wall as it just takes me out of the movie).

Dreadnought brings up transphobia, child-soldiers, abuse, emotional neglect, violence as an outlet and the trauma this can all cause AND Talks About ALL OF THEM!!!

And as you said Danny is nearly invincible and yet you just want to give the poor girl a hug and protect her.

Re: Celebrating Pride Month: Dreadnought vs. Homelander

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2023 9:11 pm
by CharlesPhipps
There's a lot of great moments in Dreadnought that jump out.

1. Danny's dad immediately supporting trans surgery--to get Danny *finger wag* BACK *finger wag* to being a boy. It's about control.
2. Danny's friend immediately tries to kiss her because she's now beautiful, ignoring that she's a lesbian and he didn't bother to think about it.
3. The sweet romance between Danny and her cowgirl girlfriend, Calamity.
4. Graywitch's gendercide is one that almost destroys them because gender is largely societal constructed.
5. The group thinking they can dictate if Danny is allowed to be dreadnought or not.

Re: Celebrating Pride Month: Dreadnought vs. Homelander

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2023 10:04 pm
by Winter
CharlesPhipps wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2023 9:11 pm There's a lot of great moments in Dreadnought that jump out.

1. Danny's dad immediately supporting trans surgery--to get Danny *finger wag* BACK *finger wag* to being a boy. It's about control.
2. Danny's friend immediately tries to kiss her because she's now beautiful, ignoring that she's a lesbian and he didn't bother to think about it.
3. The sweet romance between Danny and her cowgirl girlfriend, Calamity.
4. Graywitch's gendercide is one that almost destroys them because gender is largely societal constructed.
5. The group thinking they can dictate if Danny is allowed to be dreadnought or not.
Don't forget this little gem.

Danny: What's this?
Doc Impossible: A suppository.
Danny: No.
Doc Impossible: Shove that up your butt.
Danny: No.
Doc Impossible: It's for science.
Danny: No.
Doc Impossible: Please?
Danny: You are going to buy me pizza.
Doc Impossible: Deal.
Danny: A lot of pizza.

Also the clothes scene where Doc makes Danny a bunch of clothes she's always wanted to wear just for her. God that scene gets me every time I'm honestly on the verge of tears right now just thinking about it. :')

Re: Celebrating Pride Month: Dreadnought vs. Homelander

Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2023 10:43 am
by Madner Kami
Does noone get tired of people being LGBTQwhatever and having only experience with abuse? It kinda solidifies the theme of them just being troubled people and thus being dragged into a "wierd lifestyle", as it's doubtful that the people who hurt them would act any better, if they weren't LBTQwhatever. You're not the best parent in the world and suddenly start abusing your child for being a little bit different. Parents like that were abusive long before the child displayed any notions of that particular kind...

Re: Celebrating Pride Month: Dreadnought vs. Homelander

Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2023 12:48 pm
by hammerofglass
Madner Kami wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2023 10:43 am Does noone get tired of people being LGBTQwhatever and having only experience with abuse? It kinda solidifies the theme of them just being troubled people and thus being dragged into a "wierd lifestyle", as it's doubtful that the people who hurt them would act any better, if they weren't LBTQwhatever. You're not the best parent in the world and suddenly start abusing your child for being a little bit different. Parents like that were abusive long before the child displayed any notions of that particular kind...
That's why I love the kind of rep in She-Ra and Owl House. Queer folks of all stripes just casually existing in society and nobody cares. New Trek has been making an attempt at something similar even if it is pretty clunky at it so far, and I think we'll be seeing a lot more of it in the mainstream in the near future.

Admittedly She-Ra did have a big "parental abuse trauma" theme going, but it was unrelated.