Sfdebris.net

Long story short, their all a bunch of hypocritical, short sighted, Paranoid, self rigorous, backstabbing, corrupt, incompetent, petty, small minded, Evil, ASSHOLES!!!

The overall idea of Cadmus was to introduce an antagonist to the Justice League that would bring up a solid argument against the League and show why they could be seen as a threat to those they seek to protect and are trying to find a way to counter them seeing the Justice Lords and what the League could become. Not a bad idea but for me it falls apart for several reasons all of which are highlighted The Doomsday Sanction.

In this episode we learn that Cadmus created Doomsday and had programmed him to have a burning hatred for Superman. Now it is possible that this is not true that Milo, the scientist who tells us all this, was lying however there's nothing to indicate that he is lying which means Cadmus had created a monster who's solo purpose in life is to kill Superman BEFORE the Justice Lords even existed and it fits with what we see of Cadmus.

And when they learn that Doomsday has escaped and is fighting Superman Cadmus nobly decides to kill both Doomsday and Superman by NUKING The Island their on which has tons of innocent civilians who the League is trying to rescue. Let me repeat that, they are trying to kill Superman and other members of the League while they're trying to rescue innocent people who are being put in danger, in part, by the monster THEY CREATED!!!

And the reason Doomsday is free is because they had Zero Security! No really, a Scientist who had just been fired from Cadmus was able to just walk into Doomsday's cell, and just unlock his restraints and Cadmus took no other precautions to keep him under control even though they had the means to do so. I know they had said means because it's stated that they have Kryptonite which is in the Nuke they plan to kill Superman with later in the same episode.

So, they create monster who's soul purpose is to kill Superman (which they did by torturing it until it was driven mad) before there was an actual reason to distrust Superman or the League. Had no real security to keep Doomsday under lock and key despite having the means to do so because they instead used that to make a Nuke that they planned to lunch a Nuke at an inhabited island in an attempt to kill Superman who is trying to save the people of the island.

And the only reason that doesn't happen is because the League is able to subdue Doomsday and Batman is able to redirect the Nuke away from the island... And then Batman gets angry at CLARK for sending Doomsday to the Phantom Zone.

Yeah, the fact that Cadmus is the cause of all the problems for this episode is dropped in this very episode and the show tries to act like the League sending Doomsday to the Phantom Zone is somehow more worrying.

You'd figure if Bruce was going to be angry at anyone who are abusing their power it would be the people who created a monster called DOOMSDAY and planned to kill hundreds of innocent civilians both to kill someone trying to help people and to cover up their own mistake.

The most we get is Waller being angry that the Nuke was launched... Not that she'll learn from this because Cadmus keeps doing this and she keeps letting it happen. And in fact, she tries to have two innocent people murdered in order to traumatize a child so he'll become Batman. And the only reason that didn't happen was because a Supervillain had more morals then her.

This is the group that the writers found so sympathetic that they created a conflict killer by revealing that Brainiac was manipulating the League and Cadmus to fight one another which is Bullshit! Cadmus made their choices and most of those choices were awful and in many cases downright evil. They created sentient and brainwashed them with the intent of killing the Justice League and anyone unfortunate enough to be working with them. They stool the DNA of both Clark and Kara to create monsters who's soul purpose was to kill those they were cloned from.

And they work with or CREATE Supervillains and in doing so cause more damage then the League ever did and do so with MANY Innocent people caught in the crossfire with often no sign that they actually care.

I'll be honest I view Justice League Unlimited as the Star Wars Disney Sequel Trilogy of DC. It has a pretty solid start and some good ideas and moments but, IMO, it falls apart in its second act and has a rather weak finally with a last minute final boss who just comes out of nowhere.

I mean, yes, absolutely Cadmus is the bad guys but they're also people that the Justice League created by the fact that they presumed everyone would be okay with them accumulating unlimited power. The Justice League took the Justice Lords route of believing they were better equipped as well as qualified to make judgements of how to enforce the law.

And you know who hates that?

Governments.

Cadmus is absolutely full of psychopaths and scumbags but it only exists because the Justice League didn't bother to question whether anyone would have an issue with the actual war crime against the UN of creating a space based weapons platform.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 1:05 pm I mean, yes, absolutely Cadmus is the bad guys but they're also people that the Justice League created by the fact that they presumed everyone would be okay with them accumulating unlimited power. The Justice League took the Justice Lords route of believing they were better equipped as well as qualified to make judgements of how to enforce the law.

And you know who hates that?

Governments.

Cadmus is absolutely full of psychopaths and scumbags but it only exists because the Justice League didn't bother to question whether anyone would have an issue with the actual war crime against the UN of creating a space based weapons platform.

Yep, exactly.

I get why the Justice League did what they did. The Thanagarian invasion showed them just how unprepared they were for real threats. And the fact is that the DCAU heroes are weaker than their comic counterparts by intention - they need numbers and massive guns on their side. That scene where Henry Cavill's Superman no-selled five League members left a considerable number of people with the belief that the Snyder!League was pointless.

But at the end of the day, the JL were a dangerous combination of both ignorant and arrogant in assuming the world would see things their way. If it wasn't Cadmus it would have been someone else.

I'm reminded of Torchwood over on Dr Who. Whatever their flaws were, Ten wasn't winning any popularity contests with the British government.

So the takeaway is, that the Justice League was always doomed to fail? What's the logical alternative? Cooperating with the world governments and sharing the technology the JL has available to itself with them? And then what? Every country gets their own space-laser so noone has an advantage over everyone else? North Korea gets one, too? Russia? Somalia? Or does the League only share with the US?

Madner Kami wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:36 pm So the takeaway is, that the Justice League was always doomed to fail? What's the logical alternative? Cooperating with the world governments and sharing the technology the JL has available to itself with them? And then what? Every country gets their own space-laser so noone has an advantage over everyone else? North Korea gets one, too? Russia? Somalia? Or does the League only share with the US?

Maybe, yes.

What I like about JLU is that it is incredibly mature for a kids show. You don't get this kind of grey on grey thinking in any modern kids superhero show i've seen - the last one I saw was My Hero Academia and I think that's aimed at an older age group. This show is not afraid to tackle the concept of a more realistic take on superhero morality.

Real life is nasty and complicated and often ruled by prejudice and fear over logic and reason. People do not automatically back the good guys just because they are the good guys and the bad guys are not automatically rejected because they are the bad guys. And this is compounded by the fact that whilst we the viewer knows that the Justice League have good intentions, all that the people of this universe knows is that a bunch of incredibly powerful people who do not answer to any government have a gun pointing down.

And in a more meta sense, you can smell 9/11 oozing off this show imo. Can you imagine this plotline if it was George Reeves's Superman instead? All he would have needed to do was smile, fold his arms, and ''truth, justice and American Wayed'' his way into convincing everyone that ''of course'' the US should have the JL's tech and not them damn Russkies. That was the moral certitude that Americans in particular had back then (not that the remnants of the British Empire was any better if Ian Fleming's 1950s James Bond books were any indicator). I'm just not sure that we ever would have gotten the CADMUS arc the way we did before 2001.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 1:05 pm The Justice League took the Justice Lords route of believing they were better equipped as well as qualified to make judgements of how to enforce the law.

Not Really, outside of Doomsday they don't make many choices that are "Judge and Jury". They act like first responders and, well, they ARE the only people who can fight back against the worst villains because as soon as Cadmus goes up against something like Brainiac they are woefully under prepared and need the League to save the world.

Cadmus is absolutely full of psychopaths and scumbags

And the problem here is that's not how the writers saw them. They saw Cadmus as completely justified and sympathetic that they brought in Brainiac so Cadmus and the League would work together. Again, the people who created Doomsday before the Justice Lords even showed up, a monster who's was tortured into hating Superman is not someone I feel any real sympathy for but the writers did.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be someone who can standup against the League should they go rogue that would be a stupid idea as, even if most of them are good people, the simple fact is one betrayed the world and others have been mind controlled. Having people outside the League who can neutralize them is a good idea if the worst should happen.

But Cadmus lost the argument the moment they started making a slave race of Supervillains and nearly killed civilians either by accident or intentionally.

And again, AFTER making peace with the League Waller went to steal Bruce's DNA to make a clone and planned to murder that child's parents to preserve Batman's Legacy and the episode acts like she has some kind of point. That makes it seem that Waller learned nothing and was willing to continue had a Supervillain not told her off because she was more moral a person then Waller.

Again, the issue isn't whether Cadmus has a point because they do, it's that the writers felt sympathy for them and made it so they were just being pawns in not one but two villain schemes. Even though no one tricked them into creating slaves, stealing the DNA of the heroes to make said slaves and willingly worked with villains before the League had even done anything wrong.

Contrast this when Ra's al Ghoul found out about Batman's plans to defeat the Justice League. It's equally a matter of being able to take down Superheroes should they either go bad or be forced into evil and Batman made sure that these methods would be none lethal and Ra's just made them lethal. And Superman after learning about this GAVE Bruce Kryptonite as a means of making sure that he would have a way to take him down.

We understand why Batman does this, he wasn't trying to get anyone killed it was just an emergency should the worst happened and he had full faith in his friends if he went bad or was forced into villainy.

Madner Kami wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:36 pm So the takeaway is, that the Justice League was always doomed to fail? What's the logical alternative? Cooperating with the world governments and sharing the technology the JL has available to itself with them? And then what? Every country gets their own space-laser so noone has an advantage over everyone else? North Korea gets one, too? Russia? Somalia? Or does the League only share with the US?

I mean, if the alternative is shitting all over the legitimately elected (in at least some cases) leadership of the people, then the Justice League is already betraying its principles. It's interesting to compare the Cadmus arc with Captain America: Civil War.

Captain America: What if they try to tell us we can't go somewhere.

Maybe the answer is, "Maybe you shouldn't go because you're not doing the right thing by deciding to go."

Winter wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:41 pm And the problem here is that's not how the writers saw them. They saw Cadmus as completely justified and sympathetic that they brought in Brainiac so Cadmus and the League would work together. Again, the people who created Doomsday before the Justice Lords even showed up, a monster who's was tortured into hating Superman is not someone I feel any real sympathy for but the writers did.

Uh, no, Winter. Not even close. They had a big episode about General Eiling going into monster form and beating up a bunch of "normal" human beings. Eiling also almost nuked Not-Cuba. They also employ a bunch of criminals who kill Plastique (the most sympathetic cute one). Cadmus is clearly a group with a point but full of assholes.

And the writers are absolutely aware of it.