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Let' be honest we all knew that the the Arkham Knight was Jason Todd as soon as the character was announced. Fans were theorizing that Jason was going to be involved somehow in the next game due to the characters increased popularity thanks to Under the Red Hood. But for whatever reason Rocksteady decided to lie about the obvious twist and kept insisting that it wasn't Jason but a new original character made exclusively for the games.

As we all know that wasn't the case though interestingly DC did include the Arkham Knight in the comics and DID make the character an original creation with no connection to Jason.

In the comics the secret identity of the Arkham Knight is Astrid Arkham, daughter of Jeremie Arkham. She was raised by her mother and Batman's rogue's gallery because Astrid's mom was nice to them. During a breakout Astrid's mom was killed by one of the inmates with a Batarrang when he was trying to kill Batman and Astrid blamed Batman and so created the identity of the Arkham Knight.

From what I understand the comic's version of The Arkham Knight did not go over well with fans. It wasn't a disaster but it didn't really connect with fans either. However, that story inspired me so here's my idea for the Arkham Knight in Batman: Arkham Knight.

She's not Astrid Arkham but she is someone who has a strong tie to the Asylum and someone who died during the events of the first game, someone Batman failed to save. The Arkham Knight in this version of Kaylee Young, daughter of Dr. Penelope Young.

Kaylee was actually a solider in the army and joined when she was around 19 years old and served for several years before the events of Arkham Asylum. She had a strained but ultimately loving relationship with her mother. However, her life was turned upside down after the events of AA as in just a few days she learned her mother was killed and that she was involved in some illegal experiments and was used as a scapegoat and blamed for everything that happened.

As a result of this Kaylee was eventually discharged from the army and while it's never said why well, let's be honest, being related to someone who performed illegal experiments on people and was the person blamed for a mass breakout is something that will effect ones social standing.

However, Kaylee was able to find work in her home town of Gotham... as a Tyger guard in Arkham. She's was actually one of the few people who joined willingly and one of the few Strange didn't mess with because she was already a skilled fighter and wasn't easily intimidated and already had a burning hatred for Batman who she grew to hate both for failing to save her mother and for being the one who indirectly exposed her part in Joker's plot.

However, as a result of the events of Arkham City Batman had indirectly caused the death of Hugo Strange and brought an end to Arkham City.

And with the corruption of the Prison City exposed Kaylee's own reputation was now in the gutter. Enranged by this she swore revenge against Batman for all that happened, for failing to save her mother and ruining her family's name.

The reason I went with this route was mainly due to me wanting to build on the foundation of what came before instead of including a new character who's not even been mentioned in the Arkham Games until now. One of the problems with Jason as the Arkham Knight is the game has to introduce him to people who've never heard of him and built him into the story of ongoing series that he's had no part in until now.

By making it instead someone related to Dr. Young and was also unknowingly involved in the events of AC we have more of a chance to tie it into the story of this series and building upon a story that I felt was wasted.

And it also provides a twist on the core concept of Batman. The whole purpose of Batman is to insure that no one would ever lose their parents to some nut with a gun but in this instance Batman has become, unknowingly, the cause of someone's pain. By both failing to save Dr. Young and indirectly ruining the family's reputation he created his own enemy.

A lot of arguments have been made over the years that Batman creates his own villains, that is responsible for them being the way they are and let's be honest, that bullshit. Most of the people Batman has fought were either A) Already pretty messed up to begin with and were already crazy and had he not gotten involved more would have died. And B) those who weren't overtly crazy at the start weren't driven mad by Batman, if anything Batman tried to save them and just didn't make it in time.

But with this version of the Arkham Knight there is an argument that Batman did create her. He failed to save someone he loved and then played a part in ruining her mother's name and he then ruined her name by exposing the truth behind Arkham City. And Batman did nothing to try and help the rest of Dr. Young's family, never tried to shield them from the backlash of those events, never gave the daughter of the woman he failed to save chance because he just didn't know.

Sure Bruce had no way of knowing and was kinda preoccupied with other things but would it really have killed him to help out Dr. Young's family? To apologize for not saving her and to try and protect them from things they had nothing to do with?

I think that would be a much more compelling story that uses the events of the first two game's instead of character not seen and only mentioned once in a optional non-canon challenge map.

Instead of needlessly torturing Jason into hating his own father we instead have someone who was hurt by Batman's actions and inaction. Someone who would bare a striking resemblance to that person who is Batman's dark reflection. Someone who's family was hurt, by him. He failed to save someone and kept failing to help their loved ones even when he had the power to do so, and now that mistake has caught up with him.

But that's just my thoughts, what about yours?

The Arkham Knight was fine because Jason Todd is a fine character for the story they were telling. It's just it makes no goddamn sense for Jason Todd to have an ARMY OF ROBOT TANKS. Who is paying for them? Why? Why is he being so stupid with them? Tie some hostages to them.

I don't think the above Arkham Knight that was Ms. Arkham is particularly a better character.

But if you're going to advertise a NEW character then you should have made a new character.

Nothing would change if Jason Todd had been the Red Hood and the Mercs under him the Outlaw PMC or whatever.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 4:52 am The Arkham Knight was fine because Jason Todd is a fine character for the story they were telling. It's just it makes no goddamn sense for Jason Todd to have an ARMY OF ROBOT TANKS. Who is paying for them? Why? Why is he being so stupid with them? Tie some hostages to them.

I don't think the above Arkham Knight that was Ms. Arkham is particularly a better character.

But if you're going to advertise a NEW character then you should have made a new character.

Nothing would change if Jason Todd had been the Red Hood and the Mercs under him the Outlaw PMC or whatever.

In regards to the first two questions, Batman's Rogues Gallery and because they wanted Batman dead.

And in regards to the final point, I don't agree I think a LOT would have changed if they made Red Hood the main villain because Red Hood and Arkham Knight are fundamentally not the same character. AK just wants Batman dead for failing to save him, RH is Batman's greatest failure come back to hunt him in a way that challenges his core philosophy and morals. Batman doesn't kill, Red Hood does. Batman believes in giving everyone a second chance, Red Hood believes in no second chances.

That is missing completely from AK as all he wants is Batman dead because he was brainwashed into hating Batman. It's Jason in name only, his death and resurrection and overall personality has nothing in common with the character from the comics. Which wouldn't be so bad if that character didn't suck.

He spends close to 10 hours effectively whining about how he is totally gonna beat Batman and then throws a tantrum because he's made zero progress throughout the story and Batman spends 12 hours not figuring out who he is and then after he does Jason is gone from the game outside of one scene that's less then 30 seconds long and then he be gone.

Despite being the title character the Arkham Knight isn't really the focus, Joker is. Which is honestly something that also bugs me about this game because just like WB Montreal Rocksteady promised that Joker was dead and wasn't going to be the main antagonist only for the game to come and and yeah Joker is basically the main antagonist. Sure AK and Scarecrow and the more pressing threat but the game makes it clear that Joker is the greater threat and because there is literally no villain in the base game who doesn't share screen time with Joker the main threat is Joker and the Arkham Knight is just kinda there.

It's like the developers had so little faith in the game succeeding without Joker that they decided to just inject him into as much of the game as possible and not only that but retconned why his blood was dangerous and then gave us FIVE Jokers. Because why develop the character that's actually in the title of the game, no just pile on as many Jokers as you can, that won't annoy anyone who's sick of overusing the Joker.

Maybe they should try to make Arkham Knight a good character because if you are only familiar with Jason beforehand, I think that the only people who didn't see the twist didn't know who Jason Todd is, and I honestly think that AK is bad first introduction to mister Todd.

Talia Kane is an okay idea for the Arkham Knight. I just cringe at the misspoken villain though considering nobody playing considers Batman responsible for Young's death. Also, her persuasion of getting an army to defeat Gotham is kind of vague and dramatic.

As an aside, an unjuiced Bane leading a regime from rebel Santa Prisca would probably be the safest idea for the end result of what we're playing. Him being experimented on by Dr. Young would be a fitting motivation for his overtaking for Gotham, and he wouldn't be happy with Batman for trying to save her. He could have been just as whiny, just more articulated in speech.

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 7:10 pm I just cringe at the misspoken villain though considering nobody playing considers Batman responsible for Young's death. Also, her persuasion of getting an army to defeat Gotham is kind of vague and dramatic.

Well no one really blamed Kirk for not checking up on Khan, it wasn't his fault that Ceti Alpha VI blew up and fucked up Ceti Alpha V. The only person who held Kirk responsible for what happened to Khan and his people was Khan. And it is easy to see why he would blame Kirk because it was within Kirk's power to just come and check on Khan and his people but he never did, he just forgot about them and moved on with his life.

My idea for The Arkham Knight is intended to be the same. Someone hurt by Batman's action and inaction from her perspective and out for revenge. Batman KINDA created the Arkham Knight as it was him failing to save her mother and indirectly exposing her experiments with Titan and later exposing Arkham City that led to her dedicating her life to hunting down and kill Batman.

The argument is there and it's meant to be more open to interpretation. Did Batman create his own worst enemy? Did he fail to life up to what he has strive to be his whole life, to stop anyone from going through what he went through as a child?

Joker is chiefly most responsible for Dr. Young's death and ruined reputation but it was within Batman's power to help her family and by all accounts he never did.

From Kaylee's perspective Batman is equally responsible for what happened to her mother and with Joker dead that means all her anger and hatred is directed at one person.

As for how she got an army that I can answer pretty easily. She doesn't.

She has the remnants of Tyger and managed to convince the Rogues Gallery to join Forces. As for the tanks, that's Penguin's doing. We know he likes to get his hands on the best weapons he can buy we, saw this in the last two games and when it comes to dealing with Batman there can be no half measures anymore after he killed Joker (remember no one actually knows what happened between the two in the finale of Arkham City so many of the villains are now scared that Batman has broken his one rule even though he didn't).

This allows the Rogue's gallery to still play a major role in the game so while the Arkham Knight is the main threat as she's given control of this "Army" the other villains get more to do in the main story instead of being regulated to repetitive side quests. I even worked in a little Easter Egg to Batman Beyond as the person Penguin is buying the tanks from is Vance Enterprises who's founder and CEO would go on to become a human A.I. and one shot villain Batman Beyond.

It's not perfect but it at least gives the villain a motive that is already built into the story of the series instead of needing to rework an existing character and make a new origin and motive for them to go after Batman.

And as for your other idea.

As an aside, an unjuiced Bane leading a regime from rebel Santa Prisca would probably be the safest idea for the end result of what we're playing. Him being experimented on by Dr. Young would be a fitting motivation for his overtaking for Gotham, and he wouldn't be happy with Batman for trying to save her. He could have been just as whiny, just more articulated in speech.

I don't think this would work because it was firmly established in Asylum and City that Bane wasn't the master tactician, strategist and leader he was in Origins and Origins showed why as the TN1 caused permanently brain damage and the Titan likely didn't do him any favors either. Bane in Arkham is now just dumb muscle who is no longer a serious threat to Batman outside of fights and even then it could be argued that he's been down graded since he was beaten by Batman last time by putting up a flimsy metal gate that I could have broken out of.

Winter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 8:31 pm

As an aside, an unjuiced Bane leading a regime from rebel Santa Prisca would probably be the safest idea for the end result of what we're playing. Him being experimented on by Dr. Young would be a fitting motivation for his overtaking for Gotham, and he wouldn't be happy with Batman for trying to save her. He could have been just as whiny, just more articulated in speech.

I don't think this would work because it was firmly established in Asylum and City that Bane wasn't the master tactician, strategist and leader he was in Origins and Origins showed why as the TN1 caused permanently brain damage and the Titan likely didn't do him any favors either. Bane in Arkham is now just dumb muscle who is no longer a serious threat to Batman outside of fights and even then it could be argued that he's been down graded since he was beaten by Batman last time by putting up a flimsy metal gate that I could have broken out of.

Just FYI I'm reading canon that Bane's strategic mind came back.

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 10:42 pm Just FYI I'm reading canon that Bane's strategic mind came back.

That's not the impression I got in the games, in Arkham City he tried to trick Batman, Batman figured him out pretty much right away and then easily defeated him. If we're talking about the tie-in comics then I'm sorry I'm counting those because the canonisity of them is questionable at best even if they're good or even great. And in regards to the Riddle that reveals where he currently is all I got from that is Bane got fed up with Gotham and went home, can't really blame him, but that's just an Easter Egg and I don't recall it saying that he had regained his mind back.

I could be wrong on that last part but in the games Bane was not really much of a threat after the events of Origin so it would be hard for me to take the idea of him coming back as a serious threat again seriously. Especially since I like that him becoming a dumb brute was due to his own obsession of wanting to break Batman that only led to him breaking himself.

I remember when Arkham Knight was being promoted, and the devs were told everyone knew the Arkham Knight was Jason Todd, so they promised he was a whole new character and someone who was going to change Batman forever.

They lied. I was so fucking pissed. For me, if they HAD to do Arkham Knight... make him fake. He does not exist. Oh, the Militia talks about him and Scarecrow talks about him... but in reality, Arkham Knight does NOT EXIST, he is just a Fear gas plan to trick Batman. Arkham Knight... is Batman's worst ideas made manifest that Scarecrow found. A plan to take down all the crime and evil in Gotham. Now this isn't an idea ya have to do, but really... Arkham Knight being Jason is easily one of the lamest ideas they ever could have done. Jason is SO BADLY WRITTEN in the game, an utter sociopath monster who is just evil for evils sakes, and I have no sympathy for him.

Yeah, I don't think lying to your fans is a good idea.