Sfdebris.net

Fan input is good.

Usually.

HALO: THE SERIES is a good example of when it works out. There was a lot wrong with Halo Season One as they seemed more interested in the struggle between the Belters...err, I mean Insurrectionists and Earth. There seemed to be almost no focus on the Covenant at all, which is kind of the point in a genocidal war between humanity and the Covenant. Master Chief went from a stoic badass to Pinocchio, trying to become a real boy with actual feelings. Season Two really retooled a lot of the plotlines to focus on, well, the Covenant coming to kill us all and that being...bad.

However, sometimes I think that the big megacorps fold way too quickly to fan demand and the result is catering to audiences that are either a vocal minority or just don't know what the hell they're talking about. STAR WARS: RISE OF THE SKYWALKER is completely fucking INCOHERENT because they tried to erase THE LAST JEDI and clearly had no idea what the answers to anything were from the mysteries set up in the previous two movies. They also wanted to cater to people who wanted Reylo and were afraid of the backlash for a Finn/Rey romance (gee, I wonder who they were worried would object).

Weirdly, I also felt the hand of the megacorp sharply in a shitty show that I actually feel became worse by becoming better. Katie Sackhoff's ANOTHER LIFE which is one of the worst science fiction programs of all time. And you know what? I was really looking forward to the next season because it was trashy fun. However, due to feedback, they killed almost the entirety of the idiot cast and retooled it from being a horny bunch of idiots in space to....a straight scifi show and ruined it. It went from being bad but fun to just...bland.

Anyone else have some examples where they think giving into the fan demands ruined a property?

The Star Wars Sequels is a bad example because JJ Abrams was ALWAYS going to reverse Rian Johnson's changes because he hated them as much as anyone else. That is less a problem of fans and more a problem of ''Hey! Disney! Why the fuck did you decide to get three (originally) different directors on this in the first place? And why did you choose a man who clearly hates Star Wars?'' It should have been JJ all the way even though what he made wasn't that good.

THAT SAID, The Force Awakens was a direct result of Prequel hate. A lot of people in 2015 were saying that ''Disney is going to set things right''. Kind of ironic now - especially as we can very much blame ten years of Red Letter Media for that. I remember the Prequels being rather well liked when they first came out.

And there are good examples of fan demand too. Star Trek Discovery/Picard season 1 to Star Trek Lower Decks/Picard season 3 is a clear example that I think most people agree with.

I can't get behind Picard Season 3 since I had and have no interest in another TNG movie.

Picard was its own thing and if you liked Season 1, you wanted its plotlines resolved.

But I'm clearly the minority. Even so, Season 2 and 3 were filmed simultaneously so it's more the case they were following their own script there.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 4:35 amSTAR WARS: RISE OF THE SKYWALKER is completely fucking INCOHERENT because they tried to erase THE LAST JEDI

I mean, The Last Jedi tries to erase the Force Awakens so turn about is fair play right

I think there needs to be a distinguishment to where creators listen to feedback and make the wrong choices, and when creators try to cater to fan wants and miss the mark.

For me the worst fan input ruining media is Korra s1 trying to recapture the Zutara phenomenon and that's very much the second kind I was talking about as no one was asking for that.

stryke wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:00 pm

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 4:35 amSTAR WARS: RISE OF THE SKYWALKER is completely fucking INCOHERENT because they tried to erase THE LAST JEDI

I mean, The Last Jedi tries to erase the Force Awakens so turn about is fair play right

Exactly. I'd rather someone be honest that they were okay with it in one instance but not the other, but it seems defenders of one try to pretend the other didn't have the same problem and it's infuriating.

Funny I just listened to a Steve Shives video he just released talking about this.

Fans should not be writers. Writers should have the freedom and vision to what they want with a franchise without bowing to what fans what etc. He talked about a push from fans when it came to Snyder DC movies, more Spider-Man movies with Toby or Garfield, etc. Wanting Star Trek Legacy because it would continue more stories with Old Trek cast etc.

Of course alot of fans just have wishlists of what they want to see more of. Which is understandable.

He misrepresented fans being writers though. It's more about writers who are fans that is more important.

-Fans who write, we call that fanfiction.
-Writers who are fans, are still writers.

Lord of the Rings trilogy. That whole production was made directly upon people who were huge fans of Tolkien and his books.

Fan input works too. Sonic the Hedgehog. They completely redid his design after the trailer came out. It was definitely for the better.

The problem isn't that fan input can ruin a story the problem is that the people making the film/show/comic/novel/play/game to try and appease everyone. The Star Wars Disney Sequel Trilogy is a great example of this, The Force Awakens was made to try and address issues fans had with the Prequel films, The Last Jedi was made with critiques towards TFA and Rise of Skywalker was made to try and appease everyone.

So Uncivilized actually covered this rather well in his review of the Trilogy.


youtu.be/XtArKawnWNI

These films were being made more as a means to appease fans who dislike what came before as appose to trying to make a story. JJ Abrams disliked the Prequels, Rian Johnson disliked a lot of ideas in the Force Awakens and Abrams disliked how TLJ disregarded those plot points.

This wasn't a case of fans coming in a ruining a solid product this was a case of too many cooks in the kitchen working on the same soup. Keep in mind that fans didn't barge in to Disney and hold the creators at gun point to make changes this was choices made by the creators to cater to fans expectations instead of trusting their own visions. There's a reason these films repeat so many plot threads from the original trilogy, it's not because they're trying to tribute the original it's because they have no faith in their own ideas.

And as I've said before, the ideas of this Trilogy that are more unique to itself ARE Good if not Great because She-Ra and the Princesses of Power shares many of those same ideas and it's a great show.

I'll close this out with talking about Star Trek Picard Season 3. This season was clearly made by responding to fans dislike of the first two seasons and it's not only the most popular season of this series but one of the most popular seasons of Trek as a whole both with fans AND general audience. But it's very clear there was a lot of love and effort put into this season, more so then the other 2.

There are so many great moments in this season and I don't mean the fan-service moments. Bits like Riker talking about his son's funeral, Picard's relationship with his son, 7 of 9 arc and many more moments that shows the cast and crew were putting in the effort to make this a great season, far better then the TNG crews last outing in the movies.

Again, remember that fans are not to blame for how studios go about making a product, we are not actually involved in the creative process we are on the sidelines for the most part. In the end it's down to the people making the show how it turns out.

McAvoy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 7:27 pm-Fans who write, we call that fanfiction.
-Writers who are fans, are still writers.

RealJims made an excellent point about that in one of his videos. Fans are writers too, and not just in the fanfiction way, but in that they craft narratives about the show. Jerkass Homer, Golden Age, Zombies Simpsons, and more these are all stories we tell each other to explain, complain, and discuss aspects of that animated sitcom.

You'll see similar behaviour in other fandoms too. I'm sure you can think of examples of your own.

I do agree with your point about 'Writers who are fans, are still writers' and thinking about it that way some times it works out like with LotR, and sometimes it's more complicated.

You've got stuff like Geoff Johns who after writing into DC comics letterpage about his Superboy headcanon when he was much younger, he then later got hired by DC as a writer, and used that opportunity to make his headcanon plain actual canon on his Teen Titans run. Me I don't mind that myself, as that was how I got into the Titans so it seemed neat to em at the time, but I've seen people who liked the early Superboy status quo absolutely hate that decision with the passion of a million burning suns.

Then you've got Doctor Who and you have the very different contrast of RTD and Moffat who both grew up as Doctor Who fans. Personally I much prefer RTD's biases of who the Doctor is compared to Moffat's lonely god who everything revolves around but I know that's definitely also a YMMV.

I can admit two things.

1. I'd LOVE to do a whole Doctor Who storyline and make the main character the Doctor becoming the Valeyard and how a Valeyard would be in the Who universe and how the universe is confronted and confronts such a figure
2. It'd probably be TERRIBLE, given I would go mega fanboy with the concept.

The problem of fans writing isn't one loves a story, I think many writers ARE Fans, it's just you need to temper it... and if you become a fanboy or fangirl when writing, the writing suffers. It becomes less a story and more a 'Look how fun and clever my idea is!' You love the story so much you refuse to cut anything, and either focus on everything but nothing, or focus on ONE aspect, and not several that should be.

Like I said, writers that are fans of a franchise is different than a fan that writes stories of the franchise. One is professional and the other isn't. One is trained, taught and the other makes basic storytelling errors and a ton of tropes.

Doesn't mean a fan of something, can create a novel idea for something. Take for example. Princess Bride. Every once in awhile there is talk about remaking it or making a sequel to it. Of course it is always a resounding no. But one that always stuck in my mind is bringing back Fred Savage as the Grandpa telling his granddaughter the story. She complains about listening to a book when she could play a game on her tablet or something. Then when you cut into the story, it's remastered footage of the original. And that's it, put it in the move theater. Probably can do that with a minimal budget. It's a novel idea to me.