Sfdebris.net

No!

This is something I hear a lot in the second reboot of the Survivor Timeline, that Lara in this continuity is a heartless, psychotic, unfeeling murderer and that she should be tried for her actions. What bugs me about these arguments is they ignore one little, itty-bitty, tiny detail. SHE WAS DEFENDING HERSELF!!!

In the first game everyone Lara kills is actively trying to kill her and it is near to impossible for her to simply sneak past them and if the the Solarii spot her they will actively try to kill her. There is a scene around the middle of the game that really emphasizes this where we and a few Solarii are captured by the Storm Guard (which was a result of them setting a trap for Lara when she was trying to save someone I might add) and we run into a few of them who are trying to get out.

If you don't attack them the Solarii offer up a truce saying that the Storm Guard will kill them all. Lara then simply asks who are the Storm Guards are and what they want to which the Solarii go "Fuck it" and try to kill her.

There's a line from one of Chuck's The Old Republic Reviews (The Sith Warrior) that really sums up Lara's situation in the first game "What should have I done differently?! Do I have to let him kill me to prove I'm killing in self defense, That won't do me any good will it?!"

Further more in almost every encounter with the Solarii they attack first or there pretty much no way to get around them and Lara is actively trying to save someone else. In fact the few times where Lara can spare one of the Solarii's lives is left completely in the players hands the first of which being when Lara gets the Assault Rifle and at one point when she's on her way to rescue one of the pilots who came to save her and her crew.

Now the first person Lara can spare is often brought up as a prime example of Lara being a murderer because of her line "Go to Hell" after shooting him. This ignores the fact that this guy was trying to kill her just a few second ago, that the injury he recieved was because he refused to move when it was what Lara going to do (you can literally walk up to the window holding the lantern and he will still not get the hint) and that he was begging her to kill him because of his injuries from the explosion so this is a mercy kill.

Same thing goes for Rise of the Tomb Raider and even Shadow of the Tomb Raider only now you're given the option to spare many of your enemies in a number of encounters meaning anytime you're forced to kill is when you have no real option.

But there's one thing to keep in mind in Shadow in which Lara does kill god knows how many innocent people. This isn't on purpose and she's horrified but the fact of the matter is every innocent person she kills but in THAT instance she is guilty to all that death. However, that still isn't murder as murder is done with intent, this is more akin to manslaughter but literally everyone Lara personally kills is not a case of murder. If she didn't kill them they would have killed her and Lara was actively trying to save people and had begged several of her enemies to see reason so she wouldn't have to kill them. The only instance of Lara straight up murdering someone is with Konstantin at the end of Rise as she was already beaten so Lara choosing to kill him wasn't a case of self defense but murder. HOWEVER! That is left up to the player not Lara and you can just choose to walk away and leave him to die and by that point he was pretty much already dead and Lara had only done what she did to defend herself.

There are instances of characters committing murder in a number of games but Lara is simply not one of those cases for 99% of this continuity. And what really bugs me is that the people she directly killing aren't innocent people but murderers or worse and they had every intention of killing her or worse and only didn't do so because she managed to kill them before they got the chance or they just didn't notice her.

She's not in the first game.

In the second game, she's deliberately ignoring the fact she has no right to the cultural treasures of the Byzantium survivors that she's pursuing against the explicit request of the Prophet as well as his people. Trinity is a bunch of imperialists she's opposing but there's a lot of questions as to why Lara thinks her treasure hunting is justified by her father really wanting the Not-Holy Grail.

The third game has Lara basically ignore the fact she caused thousands of deaths even if she atones by the end by willing to die to stop the horror she's unleashed in her desire to show up Trinity.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2024 3:20 pm She's not in the first game.

In the second game, she's deliberately ignoring the fact she has no right to the cultural treasures of the Byzantium survivors that she's pursuing against the explicit request of the Prophet as well as his people. Trinity is a bunch of imperialists she's opposing but there's a lot of questions as to why Lara thinks her treasure hunting is justified by her father really wanting the Not-Holy Grail.

The third game has Lara basically ignore the fact she caused thousands of deaths even if she atones by the end by willing to die to stop the horror she's unleashed in her desire to show up Trinity.

In regards to the second point, I don't see how her want for the Divine Source ties into her being a potential murderer. We can figure the DS is dangerous and thus she is trying to keep it Trinity from getting at. And at the start of the game she had no idea that anyone was living in the Valley and when she does she is willing to talk to them about taking the DS. And at the end of the game, before she destroys it she looks over at Jacob who gives her permission to do so.

If Trinity wasn't involved and Lara wasn't in another life and death situation I've no doubt she would have talked it out with Jacob and once she saw what became of Kitezh she likely would have agreed to live the DS alone instead of destroying it like she does in the actual game.

As for Shadow... Yeah, everything that happens is Lara's fault and while she does attempt to sacrifice herself she never really excepts the fact that this is all her fault and gets to go off into the sunset with a smile.

I honestly hate the ending of Shadow, especially the fact that the people Lara put in danger are never told how she is involved in all their suffering and they can't help but praise her. I think it would have been more dramatic if the people of Paititi learn that Lara is the reason the world almost ended and so many lives were lost that she and basically told her to fuck off. And have this reflected in the game, where in Paititi where when you do side quests the people you help are no longer happy to see you.

Also I would have Lara yell at Jonah for screwing up for a third time which nearly destroyed the world yet again (he's the reason Sam was captured a second time, it was his stupid choice to hold onto the Atlas when he got captured and his dumb idea to go further into Trinity territory to steal of helicopter which resulted in Trinity getting both halves of the McGuffin) and Lara just yells at him in a moment of anger and Jonah decides to leave Lara.

Thus in the end Lara is left alone, her remain friend is gone, she's chosen to cut herself off from Sam (her one true love), and the people she's saved hate her because she's the reason so much went wrong.

It's a tragic ending but I personally prefer that to Lara getting nothing but love and support from the people she put in danger because none of them no any better.

But as for these events tying into her being a murderer. With Rise it's still a case of self defense as Trinity is actively trying to kill her, even breaking into her house to kill her and in Kitezh she works with the people to protect them, with Sofia even telling Lara how to get to the Atlas. Same thing in Shadow as even if you didn't read the comics you can tell Lara has been hunted by Trinity for a while and if you do read the comics then it's made more obvious that Lara is acting in self defense because she left Trinity alone and they still sent people out to kill her when she was no longer posing a threat to them.

So, to sum up, A Survivor is Born and Rise that's self defense while Shadow is manslaughter and self defense again.

And while the game tries to paint him in a more sympathetic life Amaru is still guilty of murder, mass murder, ordering the deaths of Lara and her father and tried to kill millions of people just to protect his village when the world pose no real threat. Amaru is only seems sympathetic due to Lara being so unlikable in this game.

So, on the whole Lara is really only definitively guilty of manslaughter due to her causing the apocalypse (now that's a phrase you don't hear everyday) but murder there's again only one instant of that and that can be avoided if the player so chooses.

So Lara is not a murderer, because she's acting as a vigilante? You do realize, that someone being a Batman is bad, right? And that it's even worse, when Batman kills?

Madner Kami wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 3:00 pm So Lara is not a murderer, because she's acting as a vigilante? You do realize, that someone being a Batman is bad, right? And that it's even worse, when Batman kills?

... Huh? I just mentioned that Lara killing these people is in self defense and she is in a situation where she cannot call the authorities due to Trinity having ties several major authorities through bribery. In the first game there is no chance of help and the people she's dealing with WILL kill her even as she tires to reason with them. Again there is a moment in the first game where the Solarii offer to work together and then the Solarii, NOT Lara, attack her Lara after she gets 8 words into the this "Truce".

For Lara to be a vigilante she would have to be going against the rule of law and to seeking out revenge against people which she isn't, not in the first two games anyway. Again, taking the comics into account Lara DID try to just walk away from Trinity and leave them alone because dealing with them was costing her to much but Trinity kept going after her even before she knew about them. And she she tried to go the authorities but they were either working with Trinity or did nothing.

And going by just the games, Lara only attacks Trinity when they try to kill her first.

If you are killing in an act of self defense then that doesn't count as murder. The Solarii and Trinity are actively trying to kill Lara and even when she tries to avoid violence they choose to try and murder her so she is forced to defend herself. And the authorities are doing nothing about that as they are either on Trinity's pay-role or are doing nothing.

Lara is using force to defend herself and others with only one POSSIBLE case of such a death being murder which again, is Konstantin IF the player chooses to kill him after he has already been dealt with. Other then that each death is a case of self defense.

A murderer? No. A KILLER? Yes. As far as I can tell, all of the lives she takes are in warm-blooded self-defense. You can probably make the case for manslaughter, given how Shadow played out, but still.

No, the thing that threw me off was how quickly she got accustomed to the killing in TR2013. She goes from crying over a deer she's hunted for dinner to going full Jane Rambo on the cultists in what felt like an hour. Pacing feels a touch off.

ProfessorDetective wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 8:23 pm A murderer? No. A KILLER? Yes. As far as I can tell, all of the lives she takes are in warm-blooded self-defense. You can probably make the case for manslaughter, given how Shadow played out, but still.

No, the thing that threw me off was how quickly she got accustomed to the killing in TR2013. She goes from crying over a deer she's hunted for dinner to going full Jane Rambo on the cultists in what felt like an hour. Pacing feels a touch off.

My god she's T'Pol's grandma!

ProfessorDetective wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 8:23 pm A murderer? No. A KILLER? Yes. As far as I can tell, all of the lives she takes are in warm-blooded self-defense. You can probably make the case for manslaughter, given how Shadow played out, but still.

No, the thing that threw me off was how quickly she got accustomed to the killing in TR2013. She goes from crying over a deer she's hunted for dinner to going full Jane Rambo on the cultists in what felt like an hour. Pacing feels a touch off.

Okay, this is something that bugs me, she didn't cry over the deer. She felt bad for killing it but that's about it and it takes about 3 hours before she starts doing the whole "Bring it!" later in the game. She's even says she's scared of how easy it was to kill people but she's not full Rambo until close to halfway through the game and by that point the Solarii have made it clear what they plan to kill her and anyone close to her.

Again, what often bugs me is how the people calling Lara a murderer and a psychopath will either ignore or justify those trying to kill her as blameless victims who've done nothing wrong. It just bugs me how quick these people are to jump at the chance to call Lara a heartless killer yet have no issue overlooking the horrible things the people she kills do.