Buffy thread
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Buffy thread
I think that there clearly people interests in this subject, I wonder how this will end up going to teen titans cartoon by the end.
Re: Buffy thread
Dang, I have complicated feeling about Buffy and Angel.
If it hadn't have been for those shows I'm not sure I'd ever been able to have any kind of friendship with my brother. We were both going through massive levels of different shit when growing up, and those shows always gave us something neutral to talk at length about so on that level I owe them massively for that. Also it's dang funny that he actually fell for the Beer Bad propaganda due to seeing it at a formative age, and took a bit longer than usual for someone in the UK to start drinking because of it.
That out the way, fucking hell Whedon's issues are on flagrant display looking back even from the very beginning. Doubly so when you understand that Xander was his self-insert character.
I do still have fairly positive feelings about S1-3 of Buffy, S1-2 of Angel, very selected eps of s4-6 of Buffy and s4 of Angel, but I also don't think I ever could go back to rewatch any of them now.
If it hadn't have been for those shows I'm not sure I'd ever been able to have any kind of friendship with my brother. We were both going through massive levels of different shit when growing up, and those shows always gave us something neutral to talk at length about so on that level I owe them massively for that. Also it's dang funny that he actually fell for the Beer Bad propaganda due to seeing it at a formative age, and took a bit longer than usual for someone in the UK to start drinking because of it.
That out the way, fucking hell Whedon's issues are on flagrant display looking back even from the very beginning. Doubly so when you understand that Xander was his self-insert character.
I do still have fairly positive feelings about S1-3 of Buffy, S1-2 of Angel, very selected eps of s4-6 of Buffy and s4 of Angel, but I also don't think I ever could go back to rewatch any of them now.
- hammerofglass
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Re: Buffy thread
I'm surprised Spike hasn't had a fandom resurgance that I've noticed when Astarian from BG3 was the internet's favorite babygirl for a lot of the last year. White-haired English vampire with "I can fix him or he can make me worse that's fun too" vibe who serves as the token evil teammate and all.
One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate... and thus defy the tyrannous stars.
Re: Buffy thread
I never watched it when it first came out. The first half of Buffy came out a year before I was in high school and once I graduated I was in the Navy had no time at all to follow any TV series. Same goes for Angel.
I take it back, I did see the pilot of Buffy when it first aired and it was because I did see the movie which I liked. The pilot though wasn't for me at the time.
However I did finally binge watch Buffy and Angel back in 2022. I am fuzzy on the details. But I did like it and I saw the fingerprints of Whedon being a prick when I saw it too.
I take it back, I did see the pilot of Buffy when it first aired and it was because I did see the movie which I liked. The pilot though wasn't for me at the time.
However I did finally binge watch Buffy and Angel back in 2022. I am fuzzy on the details. But I did like it and I saw the fingerprints of Whedon being a prick when I saw it too.
I got nothing to say here.
- clearspira
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Re: Buffy thread
The show has an interesting cultural footprint. It did do a lot for the perception of action women in popular culture. I cannot think of too many other shows back then with a high-kicking girl in it except maybe Power Rangers. But when you think about it, it also embodied the WORST of how women were portrayed back then. Here is my theory on this. There were two types of fantasy/sci-fi TV show in America prior to around 2004: You had shows like TNG, VOY, ENT, Andromeda and Farscape where the women were clearly casted as much for their acting ability as for their cleavage, and you had shows like the X-Files, DS9 or Stargate SG-1 that actually tried very hard to show women in meaningful professional roles... but were also quite happy to have a jiggle piece or to ''fill out a shirt'' as and when they felt like it.
Women were there to be looked at back then. That is just a fact. And Buffy really wasn't much different. I was a budding young lad when I first watched this show and thus like most budding young lads certain images are burned into my memory. Images such as the episode in season one where a praying mantis disguised as a teacher began feasting on the boys, and there is this centre-screen, long drawn out shot of her cleavage as she is pouring out coffee. They knew what they were doing, the scene did not need to be there, but it was. And I suspect that ''feminism'' or ''female audience'' were not on their minds at the time. Nor during the many slow-motion scenes of Sarah Michelle Gellar running. One of them even made the opening credits.
Shows like Stargate Universe would continue the trend past its sell by date and Game of Thrones sold itself on women's bodies. But by and large, we would be getting very different shows by 2010. A lot of that is probably thanks to the influence of the Battlestar Galactica reboot.
And then throw in the toxic relationships, the rape, her breakdown over Angel, Dawn's status as a pathetic damsel etc. and it becomes clear that Buffy's feminist legacy is hollow. And boy oh boy was this marketed as one back in the day.
Women were there to be looked at back then. That is just a fact. And Buffy really wasn't much different. I was a budding young lad when I first watched this show and thus like most budding young lads certain images are burned into my memory. Images such as the episode in season one where a praying mantis disguised as a teacher began feasting on the boys, and there is this centre-screen, long drawn out shot of her cleavage as she is pouring out coffee. They knew what they were doing, the scene did not need to be there, but it was. And I suspect that ''feminism'' or ''female audience'' were not on their minds at the time. Nor during the many slow-motion scenes of Sarah Michelle Gellar running. One of them even made the opening credits.
Shows like Stargate Universe would continue the trend past its sell by date and Game of Thrones sold itself on women's bodies. But by and large, we would be getting very different shows by 2010. A lot of that is probably thanks to the influence of the Battlestar Galactica reboot.
And then throw in the toxic relationships, the rape, her breakdown over Angel, Dawn's status as a pathetic damsel etc. and it becomes clear that Buffy's feminist legacy is hollow. And boy oh boy was this marketed as one back in the day.
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Re: Buffy thread
Did anyone else watch the DVD special features? One thing that really stands out to me is Joss Whedon saying "So I did use the term 'slut', but I made it clear that it wasn't a good thing to be a slut."
Joss Whedon can be clever sometimes, but he really thinks he's cleverer than he is, and he's at his worst when he has A Message to deliver. The season 4 episode with Oz and the female werewolf is a prime example. The subtext of the episode goes completely against the actual text.
Also, holy shit, I yiffing HATE Xander. It is a downright tragedy he never got eaten or dismembered or had eggs hatch inside his chest. Any time he showed a glimmer of character development or growth Whedon had to bang his head against the reset button until he passed out and woke up again as Whedon's high school self insert.
Joss Whedon can be clever sometimes, but he really thinks he's cleverer than he is, and he's at his worst when he has A Message to deliver. The season 4 episode with Oz and the female werewolf is a prime example. The subtext of the episode goes completely against the actual text.
Also, holy shit, I yiffing HATE Xander. It is a downright tragedy he never got eaten or dismembered or had eggs hatch inside his chest. Any time he showed a glimmer of character development or growth Whedon had to bang his head against the reset button until he passed out and woke up again as Whedon's high school self insert.
"Believe me, there’s nothing so terrible that someone won’t support it."
— Un Lun Dun, China Mieville
— Un Lun Dun, China Mieville
Re: Buffy thread
This Xena erasure will not stand.clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2024 12:51 pm The show has an interesting cultural footprint. It did do a lot for the perception of action women in popular culture. I cannot think of too many other shows back then with a high-kicking girl in it except maybe Power Rangers.
I do wonder about why Buffy was seen as the forerunner when it was very much walking the whole time in Xena's shadow, Xena even did the musical episode first, and had a massive amount of cultural penetration. Did Buffy ever get so much as a single refference on the Simpsons? Cause Xena sure did, a whole Treehouse segment, and only just missed being in the Simpsons golden age too. Most I can think of for Buffy is SMG voicing an entirely unrelated character several seasons later.
You could put it down to the overwhelming sapphic vibes making people nervous, fantasy shows just not getting any respect in general, doubly so back in the pre-LotR days, or just that Joss Whedon was a much better self-promotional huckster who was good fodder for so many thinkpieces back in the day so he could espouse his views as the guy who was seen to be the male face of feminism.
I think that well might be it is I genuinely could not name anyone who worked on Xena behind the camera while Joss Whedon quickly managed to make himself a household name.
I used to love Xander... Put that down to being younger, dumber, not fully aware of the context, and in the past I've liked both the Nostalgia Critic and Iilluminaughtii so I have a track record of liking some really vile types when I didn't know any better and also was falling for that whole parasocial thing.Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2024 3:23 pmAlso, holy shit, I yiffing HATE Xander. It is a downright tragedy he never got eaten or dismembered or had eggs hatch inside his chest. Any time he showed a glimmer of character development or growth Whedon had to bang his head against the reset button until he passed out and woke up again as Whedon's high school self insert.
Even then the reset button drove me insane. I thought it was so dang cool when he got those soldier skills in that one halloween episode and even at the time it annoyed me how quickly something it seemed like it was going to matter got swept under the rug.
Also especially fuck Hells Belles. Even in the same season as Doublemeat Palace it manages to be a stand out in how utterly dreadful that character regression was.
- hammerofglass
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Re: Buffy thread
Something that makes the sexualization weirder to me is that it didn't do it to the guys. I'm not even kidding, that was pretty standard in sci-fi and fantasy at the time. Faracape has Aeryn in skintight leather but hey so is John. Xena has a lot of women in bikinis but a hell of a lot of men with tight pants and no shirts too. DS9 and Voyager love putting everyone in sweaty undershirts. The Mummy movies just have everyone be unreasonably hot.clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2024 12:51 pm The show has an interesting cultural footprint. It did do a lot for the perception of action women in popular culture. I cannot think of too many other shows back then with a high-kicking girl in it except maybe Power Rangers. But when you think about it, it also embodied the WORST of how women were portrayed back then. Here is my theory on this. There were two types of fantasy/sci-fi TV show in America prior to around 2004: You had shows like TNG, VOY, ENT, Andromeda and Farscape where the women were clearly casted as much for their acting ability as for their cleavage, and you had shows like the X-Files, DS9 or Stargate SG-1 that actually tried very hard to show women in meaningful professional roles... but were also quite happy to have a jiggle piece or to ''fill out a shirt'' as and when they felt like it.
Women were there to be looked at back then. That is just a fact. And Buffy really wasn't much different. I was a budding young lad when I first watched this show and thus like most budding young lads certain images are burned into my memory. Images such as the episode in season one where a praying mantis disguised as a teacher began feasting on the boys, and there is this centre-screen, long drawn out shot of her cleavage as she is pouring out coffee. They knew what they were doing, the scene did not need to be there, but it was. And I suspect that ''feminism'' or ''female audience'' were not on their minds at the time. Nor during the many slow-motion scenes of Sarah Michelle Gellar running. One of them even made the opening credits.
Shows like Stargate Universe would continue the trend past its sell by date and Game of Thrones sold itself on women's bodies. But by and large, we would be getting very different shows by 2010. A lot of that is probably thanks to the influence of the Battlestar Galactica reboot.
And then throw in the toxic relationships, the rape, her breakdown over Angel, Dawn's status as a pathetic damsel etc. and it becomes clear that Buffy's feminist legacy is hollow. And boy oh boy was this marketed as one back in the day.
Meanwhile Buffy has... leather jackets and a guy in a suit. James Marsters and Anthony Head really make it work don't get me wrong, but the show doesn't do anything to emphasize that.
One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate... and thus defy the tyrannous stars.
Re: Buffy thread
I was about to say this about Xena too. Yeah sure Xena herself was in a costume that showed off her cleavage (opening credits does a good job showing them off), her legs and etc. Gabrielle was mostly covered up in the early seasons but even she got into the skintight middriff showing cleavage costumes. But at the same time, the men were definitely dressed up simarly. Equal opportunity sexy body show. I mean, the guy who played Ares. I remember the chat boards when he went from long hair to short hair how many, many, many, women and men debated which look was better. Or the debate on who had best arms in the two shows as well.stryke wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2024 4:40 pmThis Xena erasure will not stand.clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2024 12:51 pm The show has an interesting cultural footprint. It did do a lot for the perception of action women in popular culture. I cannot think of too many other shows back then with a high-kicking girl in it except maybe Power Rangers.
I do wonder about why Buffy was seen as the forerunner when it was very much walking the whole time in Xena's shadow, Xena even did the musical episode first, and had a massive amount of cultural penetration. Did Buffy ever get so much as a single refference on the Simpsons? Cause Xena sure did, a whole Treehouse segment, and only just missed being in the Simpsons golden age too. Most I can think of for Buffy is SMG voicing an entirely unrelated character several seasons later.
The men were all well toned, tanned, good looking. Even had a young Karl Urban in there for a couple of characters.
Equal opportunity eye candy for all.
I got nothing to say here.
- clearspira
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Re: Buffy thread
I did forget about Xena - this is true lol. And Xena did also have Kevin Sorbo as Hercules. I'm sure that he was someone's cup of tea.
Equal opportunity sexuality is fine in my book. Stargate routinely stumbled here. Its female representation was pretty damn good for the most part. But it never does escape your notice that the show debuted on Showtime.
That is one of the reasons why Universe is so disliked imo. Stargate had escaped most of this by then. And suddenly out came the shower and panty scenes. The ENT parallels are strong.
Equal opportunity sexuality is fine in my book. Stargate routinely stumbled here. Its female representation was pretty damn good for the most part. But it never does escape your notice that the show debuted on Showtime.
That is one of the reasons why Universe is so disliked imo. Stargate had escaped most of this by then. And suddenly out came the shower and panty scenes. The ENT parallels are strong.