What is the Most Cathartic Defeat of The Joker?

[Winter]

Like, just straight up what is a moment you think of as the definitive "Oh that was so satisfying to watch/read/play" Joker defeat in the series. It doesn't have to be a death scene or someone utterly curb-stombing the clown or even that long or anything official, just a time the clown got pwnd and didn't get the final word.

For me there are 3 moments that stand out as the most satisfying moments the clown got clowned.

First up for me is The Killing Joke.

One thing that often bugs me is several people end up agree with The Joker's argument that all it takes to drive someone mad is one bad day which is tries, and fails, to prove for both Gordon and Barbara. His whole argument is spelled out towards the end of the comic where he goes on a long rant about how the world sucks and we're all just one bad day from being just like him. Of course many people who quote this rant and say he has a point miss the point when Batman makes him counter argument starting with this underrated line

"Because I've heard it before. And it wasn't funny the first time."

And many of those people also miss that Gorden and Barbara didn't break after their one bad day but went on with their lives. Barbara was the one most hurt that day and she wasn't driven mad she instead kept on going and kept helping people.

It's a moment many fans of this book miss that Joker's entire argument is wrong. That's the whole point of his famous line "If I'm to have an origin story, I'd prefer it to be multiple choice." What we saw in those flashbacks wasn't real, they were just one version of his origin story that he choose to remember that day.

It's an underrated moment in a great story (with one terrible moment that other writers needed to fix) and something I feel doesn't get brought up enough.

Next up is Joker's Favor.

I'll admit this is my overall favorite of the three that I'm going to be talking about mainly because this is an average guy, no special powers and or skills who has been humiliated and abused by the Joker for an entire day. And this is one of the few times we see Joker really shit himself.

For those who haven't seen it what happens is Charlie Collins, the average man in question, confronts Joker in an ally way and tells him to stop and the Joker laughs at him and tries to bully him into working with him... This falls apart when Charlie reveals the bomb he has on him that he threatens to use to kill the Joker leading to this awesome bit.

"This is how it ends, Joker. No big schemes. No grand fight to the finish with the Dark Knight. Tomorrow, all the papers will say is that the great Joker was found blown to bits in an alley, alongside a miserable little nobody. Kind of funny! Ironic, really. See, I can destroy a man's dreams, too! And that's really the only dream you've got, isn't it?"

And Joker is left a blubbering, cowering mess, begging for his life and for screaming Batman to come and save him. And when Batman does show up Joker cowers behind him still pleading pathetically as Charlie still has the bomb and is still threatening him. Joker finally gives in and promises to live Charlie and his family alone, giving Batman everything he needs to make sure they'll be protected.

And Charlie thanks the Joker, by throwing the bomb at him making even Batman piss himself a little, only for it to be revealed that it was one of Joker's fake bombs so there was no danger. Batman laughs at this. Let me repeat that BATMAN laughs at Charlie's joke and how he just humiliated the Joker. As far as I know Charlie went on with his life and Joker never bothered him again.

This is also serves as an another great example of why Joker's theory of "One Bad Day" is wrong because Charlie had one of the worst days of his life and he comes out as sane as ever and returns to his life with a smile on his face.

Charlie Collins! The Definitive Chad!

And finally we have Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker.

While I will hold to the scene with Charlie being the most cathartic defeat of the Joker this is a close second. I've mentioned before how I hate the Justice League episode Epilogue and the ending of this movie is one of the reasons for that.

One of my problems with Epilogue is how it rewrote the character of Terry namely that he's Terry McGinnis in name only. His design is completely different, he's more brooding, he's not as talkative anymore and is all emo. Basically, he's Bruce now. No matter what the episode says the framing of the episode is saying that Terry is only special because he's Bruce's son. He didn't choose to be Batman he was destined to be Batman, he never had a choice.

And the ending of this movie shows why just turning Terry into Bruce just doesn't work. Terry did something that Batman from the DCAU never truly could, not only defeat Joker but outright break him and get under his skin.

As Bruce himself says, Joker likes to talk and he handles this by just ignoring him and powering through. But that's when Terry realizes something, he likes to talk too.

And he then becomes what Joker fears the most, a heckler. He spends the entire final fight taunting Joker, calling him pathetic, saying his jokes are lame and that his origin story is just sad and laughs at him, not because he finds him funny but just because he thinks Joker is just pathetic.

Joker then seems to get the upper hand on Terry but that was just so Terry could get in close to use a joy buzzer to destroy the microchip and the last thing he hears before his death is Terry saying "Ha, Ha."

And those are my favorite defeats of the Joker.

After the last few years of Joker often being written as a near invincible villain (with one story even implying that he's actually a Lovecraftian monster and not a human-being ) and being over exposed it's nice to go over little reminders that he can not only be beaten but humiliated.

And all without losing the threat he is because it would be so easy to make him seem someone we're not meant to take seriously but these stories do a great job at showing that Joker is the most dangerous adversary of Batman, someone who can hurt him in ways few other villains ever do. Which makes his defeats in these stories all the more satisfying because as dangerous as the Joker is, he's still just a man. A sad, pathetic man who would rather hurt people then admit that he has no one to blame for his evil deeds except himself.

[McAvoy]

The Batman Beyond one was a good one. Contrast of Batmans. Terry's Batman always felt like a subdued Spider-Man, something that only occurred to me the second time watching it. Which always brought me to the thought of Spider-Man versus Joker.

I have always wonder if somehow someway Joker survived into the future how he would handle the new Batman. He would obviously toy with Terry to see what is different with him. Is he breakable? Could he get Terry to kill him (Joker). Or since he isn't dealing with the old Batman he won't do his usual thing and go for the kill?

[stryke]

I'm a fan of the arc in the comics where they decide to put Joker on death row rather than the usual approach of sticking him back in Arkham by reasons of insanity, but the problem for Batman is that it's for a crime he's actually innocent of as someone is framing him.

A bunch of great stuff happens over the course of the investigation and Joker thriving in a regular jail that it's been too long since I read to be able to fully remember, the ending though really stuck with me, and Batman's final reminder to Joker when he's back in Arkham that every breath he takes from then on he owes to him which jolts Joker out of his delirium, and he lets him just stew on that realization in a way that's just decidedly cathartic.

[CharlesPhipps]

One of my problems with Epilogue is how it rewrote the character of Terry namely that he's Terry McGinnis in name only. His design is completely different, he's more brooding, he's not as talkative anymore and is all emo. Basically, he's Bruce now. No matter what the episode says the framing of the episode is saying that Terry is only special because he's Bruce's son. He didn't choose to be Batman he was destined to be Batman, he never had a choice.

I feel a lot of fans have the problem with Epilogue that Terry is acting like Bruce when the point of the episode is that Terry is doing so because he's pissed at what he thinks is a conspiracy to turn him into Batman that:

1. Didn't happen because of Andrea Beaumont's love for Bruce.
2. Bruce refusing to involve himself with Terry (his reluctance now having a whole new dimension)

Terry chose to be Batman and succeeded on his own merits.

[Winter]

One of my problems with Epilogue is how it rewrote the character of Terry namely that he's Terry McGinnis in name only. His design is completely different, he's more brooding, he's not as talkative anymore and is all emo. Basically, he's Bruce now. No matter what the episode says the framing of the episode is saying that Terry is only special because he's Bruce's son. He didn't choose to be Batman he was destined to be Batman, he never had a choice.

I feel a lot of fans have the problem with Epilogue that Terry is acting like Bruce when the point of the episode is that Terry is doing so because he's pissed at what he thinks is a conspiracy to turn him into Batman that:

1. Didn't happen because of Andrea Beaumont's love for Bruce.
2. Bruce refusing to involve himself with Terry (his reluctance now having a whole new dimension)

Terry chose to be Batman and succeeded on his own merits.

Honestly bringing Andrea into this episode also pissed me off, if anything MORE then what is done with Terry. The idea of Andrea being okay with killing two random civilians is just insulting to her character. Andrea only hunted those who hurt her and were, well, evil. They were a bunch of mobsters and the Joker with no sympathetic traits to speak of.

Sure, we don't know why Andrea is doing this, she could have been lied to or is being forced to work with Waller (why Waller is now suddenly okay with killing civilians when she was so against it throughout most of the series is another case of character assassination but that's besides the point) but that's the problem, we're missing the context as to what led to this moment. Basically this is just fan serves with no real thought put into it, Andrea is here because fans said they wanted to see her so they had her in this episode in the most out of character way they could.

As for Terry, as I said, the framing throughout the episode Terry never really acts like himself, he acts like Bruce, even at the end when he makes peace with this he's still acting like Bruce instead of himself.

I've said it before and I will say it again, should I be given the chance to make a Batman Beyond series Terry will NOT be Bruce's son. He has red hair instead of black JUST to make it clear these two are not related.

The series worked just fine without Terry and Bruce being father and son, I see no reason to include this. And I really don't care for how this seems to be done more to praise how awesome Bruce is and how Terry is now honoring his legacy instead of doing it for his own reasons.

I'll let the creator of Batman Beyond say it

"I didn’t work on Justice League Unlimited and I never wanted him to be that maybe I never wanted Terry to be Bruce’s Bruce’s DNA and so I don’t accept. I’ll tell you that right off the bat, and I’ve talked about [Bruce Timm] and I were are friendly about this and I just am I, feeling about Batman is that he’s the most democratic hero superhero because anybody can become him they don’t have to be heir to the throne they don’t have to have the same DNA it’s your own willpower that makes you the super guy.”

That is Terry, that was how he was conceived. One thing I don't think I've talked about is how Terry's parents are tied into this whole thing. Waller reveals that she picked Warren and Mary because their psychological profiles were an exact match for Thomas and Martha Wayne's. Again, the episode says one thing, the framing says another. The episode says Terry choose to be Batman, the framing says Terry was chosen to be Batman. Someone went out of their way to locate people who were just like Bruce's Parents so Terry would have similar reaction to their deaths and become Batman, which happened in the series proper. Maybe not the way it was meant to go down but in the end the results are the same.

Terry, in the original series, was a nobody. There was nothing special about him, he had no plans to become Batman, no big ideas on how to change the world, no interest in anything outside of just enjoying his life. Terry stumbled on Bruce, he found out that Bruce was Batman by accident and only became Batman when Bruce refused to do anything and the evidence to convict the man who killed his father stole the evidence from him.

Terry choose and Bruce saw him as someone worthy of being Batman. The idea that Bruce might have already figured out that Terry was his son, regardless if it was before or after working with him taints that in my view. Because now it's Bruce was kinda sorta already keeping an eye on him, knew why he was created and is now seeing that, yes, he's worthy of being Batman. Terry being a nobody who Bruce just met and proved he was worthy in what could accurately be described as the job interview from Hell, is more compelling to me.

As we talked about before I feel that Damian's handling of this story was much more interesting which makes Terry's take on it kinda pointless now because now he's filling the same role.

But we've been here before, we've had this discussion already. I get why you like, I get that for you this enhances Terry's character, but for me it's just a betrayal of the character and undercuts what his story was suppose to be about.

So, back to the original point of this post, what is your favorite defeat of the Joker that is just so cathartic for you?

[Al-1701]

Return of the Joker is the best defeat of the Clown Prince of Crime, both for the actual Joker and his little electronic lifeboat. Joker being taken out with his own gun and finding no humor in his demise was tragically poetic.

And then there's Terry facing off against Joker's effective ghost possessing Tim Drake. It's everything that made the Joker the monster he his with knowing Batman and Tim's Robin thoroughly. And yet Terry beat him by playing his own game. You have to wonder what expression crossed Bruce's face as this man who had haunted his nightmares for decades unravel as Terry trash talks him and laughs in his face. Terry saying "I thought the Joker always wanted to make Batman laugh" and the Joker's petulant scream of "YOU'RE NOT BATMAN!" was perfection. And then, showing he had mastered the Joker's game, Terry got the Joker to get sloppy and give him a chance to fry the chip. Up to this point, Terry had been trying to replace Batman, but living in Bruce's shadow. Here, he became Batman. He was not Bruce's Batman, but he was Batman.

And can I admit the edited version of Return of the Joker was more disturbing at times. Like, they really played up the horror of Bonk being exposed to the Joker gas while just killing him in the original came off as mundane. And then there was the haunting scream when the Joker is electrocuted.

[clearspira]

Batman Beyond works so much better if you forget JLU. Not often you get to say that because JLU was awesome, but it ruins Terry's character. He was originally just a regular kid who turned up at Bruce's house by coincidence. How was Waller intending to get Terry to become Batman if this did not happen? And what if Bruce said no? I'm sorry if this was answered in the episode because tbh I try to avoid it whenever I watch JLU and thus it has been a heck of a long time, but this just does not seem to be a practical plan.

AND, Bruce did not become Batman overnight. Yeah sure, Bruce is a cut above the regular human physically and mentally, but he still required a decade of travelling the world honing his craft and a billion dollars in which to execute his plans. Terry's advanced Batsuit is doing A LOT of heavy lifting in terms of his power level and he clearly is not as inventive or cunning as Bruce is.

Anyway... we cannot discuss this thread without discussing ''Injustice Gods Among Us.'' I think the story itself is padded to heck and goes on far too long, and I do not like heroes turning into villains, particularly Superman.

But, I do like the set up. If there is one way in all of creation you could possibly get the Big Blue to put his fist through a man's chest, it is nuking Metropolis and the getting him to murder a pregnant Lois with his own hands. It really is a satisfying moment and it is not hard to sympathise with Superman here. I just hate what comes next - although I will give them props for establishing that he is an alternate universe Superman and thus the rules are slightly different for him.

[Thebestoftherest]

I quite like the story where Joker went to Metropolis, he plant bombs over the city, superman finds and lay them all over Joker feet make it clear don't mess with him.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ucag--u6oE[/youtube]

[Nealithi]

Pretty much every defeat of the Joker is cathartic.
Personally I liked in the Dark Knight when Gordon removed his mask and shocked the Joker on having been out played on that count. Sure he expected to be caught be someone, but not Gordon.

[Scififan]

Batman the Brave and the Bold, Emperor Joker.

Batmite accidentally give all of his fifth dimension powers to the Joker. The Joker than puts Batman into a death trap and kills him. Then brings him back to life and puts him through another death trap and kills him again, and again, and again, over and over again. Eventually Batman tricks the Joker into going into his mind to drive Batman insane. This backfires as Batman states that a disciplined mind is a powerful mind. He then shows Joker a world without Batman but one without the Joker since Batman indirectly created the Joker.

Because of that Joker faces his one fear. Not being the Joker, just being ordinary. A nobody. He is then broken and defeated.