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As I mentioned in other posts on the idea of rebooting Dragon Ball there is one thing I most certainly would want to change from the source material which is to give the female characters more to do. Its something that really does bug me that out of all the characters in this series the women are usually being told to stay behind even though there's really no reason to do so.

Now I want to stress that I DON'T think that Akira Toriyama was a sexist and it could easily be argued that he was just writing out characters in the series when he ran out of idea in how to use them. Just take a look at Yamcha, Master Roshi or Tien, each interesting and badass in their own right but as soon as they had their moment in the sun Toriyama basically kicked them out of the series and gave them notably less and less awesome moments.

Hell Roshi for a short time was the effective main characters of the series in the first tournament arc. Yeah, Roshi has more lines, a goal he seeks to achieve and is the one who walks away with the victory in that arc. Just to compare 18 and Bulma have had a more active role in the series and the latter is pretty much just a secondary character at this point, yet she has had more badass moments in several Sagas of Dragon Ball while the series has embraced the idea of Yamcha being a loser, even referencing his infamous death pose during Super.

But at the same time, Chi-Chi.

Chi-Chi exists solely to be Goku's wife and the mother of his sons. 18 has also largely been relegated to Krillin's wife, and has had few to no scenes of her on her own. Bulma has gotten the best out of all of these characters as she still contributes to the plot be creating tech that can help out the heroes and even goes on adventures of her own away from Vegeta and Goku but still sometimes only important to the plot because of her relationship with Vegeta.

Again NOT playing the sexist card here, I honestly don't think that was Toriyama's intention but it's kinda hard no to notice this.

There's also the fact that there are more men in the cast then women and that one of those characters is dirty old man though the series does tend to treat Roshi with the other end of a fist whenever he acts like this.

I think the character who got the worst of this was Vidal who... ugh. She started out so strong and was a fun character who had a fun dynamic with Gohan and then the rest of the Buu saga happen with her getting one of the most needlessly brutal beat-downs in the series which I think Toriyama admitted to being idea. But then we have Super where Vidal doesn't have any of the character traits that made her so compelling to begin with and instead she's so bland and boring and only relevant because she's carrying hers and Gohan's daughter. Just... ugh.

If given the chance to reboot the series I would give the female characters more to do. Some of which I already mentioned like having Chi-Chi fight during the Saiyan invasion, give 18 a mini arc, give Bulma SOMETHING to do on Namek as she's pretty well utilized in the Cell Saga.

I should note that I would also give other male character similar treatment. Tien would get more cool scenes like actually helping in the fight with Buu, Yamcha would get at least one chance to be a badass and save the day (along with the happy ending he got from the abridged series) and so on.

I just feel that Chi-Chi, 18 and especially Vidal deserve better and should at least have been given a better exist to the stories besides what they got.

Am I over thinking this or is this one point most fans would agree on?

That is without a doubt. One other character you forgot and Toriyama obviously and admitted to forgetting: Launch. OG Dragonball character that had a split personality of epic proportions that changes when she sneezes. Useful until Dragonball Z.

Videl is one of the worse offenders of the changes in Super. You can't even recognize her in that series compared to Z. There is no excuse either, Super is very recent and not something left over from 80's Japanese culture.

McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2025 2:03 am That is without a doubt. One other character you forgot and Toriyama obviously and admitted to forgetting: Launch. OG Dragonball character that had a split personality of epic proportions that changes when she sneezes. Useful until Dragonball Z.

Videl is one of the worse offenders of the changes in Super. You can't even recognize her in that series compared to Z. There is no excuse either, Super is very recent and not something left over from 80's Japanese culture.

More familiar with Dragon Ball Z than Dragon Ball OG, so my mind was on the characters I was more familiar with. Though yeah I would give her a lot more to do and if she was to leave the series I would at least give her one hell of an exit.

Winter wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2025 2:30 am

McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2025 2:03 am That is without a doubt. One other character you forgot and Toriyama obviously and admitted to forgetting: Launch. OG Dragonball character that had a split personality of epic proportions that changes when she sneezes. Useful until Dragonball Z.

Videl is one of the worse offenders of the changes in Super. You can't even recognize her in that series compared to Z. There is no excuse either, Super is very recent and not something left over from 80's Japanese culture.

More familiar with Dragon Ball Z than Dragon Ball OG, so my mind was on the characters I was more familiar with. Though yeah I would give her a lot more to do and if she was to leave the series I would at least give her one hell of an exit.

Yeah she is one of only handful of female characters from OG Dragonball. Chi Chi, Bulma and Launch. That's it. Chi chi disappeared for awhile before she reappeared at the 23rd World Tournament. So it was really just Bulma and Launch.

We didn't even get another female character of importance until Android 18 too. Then Videl was next.

Super had the female Saiyans but general fan agreement they were obnoxious. Nevermind the whole SSJ transformation got reduced down to a tingle down the back.

McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2025 3:02 am

Winter wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2025 2:30 am

McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2025 2:03 am That is without a doubt. One other character you forgot and Toriyama obviously and admitted to forgetting: Launch. OG Dragonball character that had a split personality of epic proportions that changes when she sneezes. Useful until Dragonball Z.

Videl is one of the worse offenders of the changes in Super. You can't even recognize her in that series compared to Z. There is no excuse either, Super is very recent and not something left over from 80's Japanese culture.

More familiar with Dragon Ball Z than Dragon Ball OG, so my mind was on the characters I was more familiar with. Though yeah I would give her a lot more to do and if she was to leave the series I would at least give her one hell of an exit.

Yeah she is one of only handful of female characters from OG Dragonball. Chi Chi, Bulma and Launch. That's it. Chi chi disappeared for awhile before she reappeared at the 23rd World Tournament. So it was really just Bulma and Launch.

We didn't even get another female character of importance until Android 18 too. Then Videl was next.

Super had the female Saiyans but general fan agreement they were obnoxious. Nevermind the whole SSJ transformation got reduced down to a tingle down the back.

I actually like Caulifla and Kale, though they are rather underdeveloped though I like that, at least in the anime, we got some LGBT representation... sorta, they kept it pretty vague but the dialogue in the anime and especially the English dub made it clear as they could that these two are an item. Also the idea that in another universe Broly ended with Goku is just hilarious to me, mainly because of the OG Broly movie and his reason for being a villain.

Winter wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2025 3:29 am

McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2025 3:02 am

Winter wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2025 2:30 am

McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2025 2:03 am That is without a doubt. One other character you forgot and Toriyama obviously and admitted to forgetting: Launch. OG Dragonball character that had a split personality of epic proportions that changes when she sneezes. Useful until Dragonball Z.

Videl is one of the worse offenders of the changes in Super. You can't even recognize her in that series compared to Z. There is no excuse either, Super is very recent and not something left over from 80's Japanese culture.

More familiar with Dragon Ball Z than Dragon Ball OG, so my mind was on the characters I was more familiar with. Though yeah I would give her a lot more to do and if she was to leave the series I would at least give her one hell of an exit.

Yeah she is one of only handful of female characters from OG Dragonball. Chi Chi, Bulma and Launch. That's it. Chi chi disappeared for awhile before she reappeared at the 23rd World Tournament. So it was really just Bulma and Launch.

We didn't even get another female character of importance until Android 18 too. Then Videl was next.

Super had the female Saiyans but general fan agreement they were obnoxious. Nevermind the whole SSJ transformation got reduced down to a tingle down the back.

I actually like Caulifla and Kale, though they are rather underdeveloped though I like that, at least in the anime, we got some LGBT representation... sorta, they kept it pretty vague but the dialogue in the anime and especially the English dub made it clear as they could that these two are an item. Also the idea that in another universe Broly ended with Goku is just hilarious to me, mainly because of the OG Broly movie and his reason for being a villain.

Yeah they kept it vague. You could go either way with it. I personally just felt Caulifla to be obnoxious. I was OK with Kale but she was annoying originally. It felt like a trope that the most demured, timid, soft spoken, scared character would end up being the female Broly. Like too much on the nose.

Even the fusion version of both had Caulifla as a far more dominant personality of not total control.

Caulifla being the way she could have been by design and not some mistaken writing trying to make her look strong. She is obviously young, a Saiyan and a prodigy at that.

In fairness, this is a criticism you can land against most Shonen - a word that translates to ''product aimed at young Japanese boys.'' It is understandable to look at these things through Western eyes - you cannot pluck them out and use someone else's eyes after all - but the Japanese historically have a very different view of gender dynamics. They are quite happy with the female characters standing aside with large boobs and/or dinner on the table whilst the lead buff men go off and fight something. The female character fighting something seriously is normally a Special Episode rather than a full plot.

And BTW Shoujo is just the same but in reverse so it isn't all one way.

(Controversial opinion time) I think that the Japanese understand marketing far better than Americans do. One of the reasons imo that Manga outsells American comics is because American comics nowadays are aimed at everyone. And you know the adage about trying to please everyone? Yep - you end up pleasing no one.

To put this in American terms - Boys typically do not want a Barbie for Christmas and girls typically do not want an Action Man for Christmas (I believe it is known as a GI Joe in America). Normally a product aimed at one sex that ends up being enjoyed by both is because that product has terrific writing, and that is fine. Dragonball is one such example of ''a brilliant show enjoyed by both'' but Toriyama flat out admits that this was not his intention. He just wanted to make stories for boys.

clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2025 7:51 am In fairness, this is a criticism you can land against most Shonen - a word that translates to ''product aimed at young Japanese boys.'' It is understandable to look at these things through Western eyes - you cannot pluck them out and use someone else's eyes after all - but the Japanese historically have a very different view of gender dynamics. They are quite happy with the female characters standing aside with large boobs and/or dinner on the table whilst the lead buff men go off and fight something. The female character fighting something seriously is normally a Special Episode rather than a full plot.

And BTW Shoujo is just the same but in reverse so it isn't all one way.

(Controversial opinion time) I think that the Japanese understand marketing far better than Americans do. One of the reasons imo that Manga outsells American comics is because American comics nowadays are aimed at everyone. And you know the adage about trying to please everyone? Yep - you end up pleasing no one.

To put this in American terms - Boys typically do not want a Barbie for Christmas and girls typically do not want an Action Man for Christmas (I believe it is known as a GI Joe in America). Normally a product aimed at one sex that ends up being enjoyed by both is because that product has terrific writing, and that is fine. Dragonball is one such example of ''a brilliant show enjoyed by both'' but Toriyama flat out admits that this was not his intention. He just wanted to make stories for boys.

My point isn't trying to please everyone it's about pointing out that there are a number of characters that were heavily underutilized. There's a reason I mentioned Yamcha and Tien alongside Chi-Chi, 18 and Vidal. To once again go to my example before, Chi-Chi could have easily been involved in the Saiyan Invasion arc without taking anything away from the other characters while adding to the cathartic factor of Vegeta's defeat.

Just have Chi-Chi show up towards the end and help out during the fight with Vegeta like Yajirobe does. This is a regular Earthly, who is able to deal some damage to the Prideful Saiyan Prince which further humiliates him even as she ends up beaten and bloody alongside everyone else.

And again, the beatdown of Vidal in the Buu saga. Again, I'm pretty even Toriyama regretted how this was handled as it was a needlessly brutal and bloody beatdown and no one stepping in to help her. This was overly cruel and frankly off putting and most fans agree was a mistake.

I would argue that the real issue with the show isn't how it handles it's characters but how it over focused on Goku and Vegeta which lead to other characters getting tossed to the side.

One thing I enjoyed about Naruto was how the series managed to keep the focus on several characters instead of just the title character. We'd get whole arcs where Naruto either was a supporting role to someone else, only had a cameo or made no real appearance at all.

My favorite saga in the series is the Cell saga which gave a bit more focus to most of the supporting cast, giving less focus to Vegeta and Goku but not tossing them to the side completely. The anime did an even better job by expanding on Gohan who doesn't get a whole lot of focus in this arc despite being the one it's suppose to be about. Did you know his transformation into Super Saiyan is an anime original scene? Yeah, we never see this happen in the manga which frankly diminishes his character.

One of the reasons the movie Dragon Ball Super Hero is so well liked among fans is that it gives more focus to characters who have been out of focus for almost a decade, Piccolo, Pan and Gohan. I actually do have a soft spot for the DB movie Bio-Broly because it gave more attention to 18 as while she's not the main focus it's more then what we got in the show.

Because this does tie-into it somewhat I would mention that if given a chance to reboot the series this is something I would do. Shift focus around to other characters and see what's going on so they can get more focus instead of just focusing on Goku and Vegeta.

Honestly thinking it over here's something that can be done with the Namek Saga. Focus on the Z Fighters in the afterlife as they make their way to King Kai and their training, keep Bulma on Earth and bring Chi-Chi to Namek. Chi-Chi and Krillin take terns guarding the Dragon Balls and they all deal with the Ginyu Force before Goku shows up.

Meanwhile we get a mini-arc on Earth as she searches for the Dragon Balls once Piccolo is brought back as they need to use them fast just in case Piccolo is killed again. 3 or 5 episodes max which can even include the Pilaf gang where they are once again trying to find and use the MacGuffins but now Bulma has to do this on her own with only Yajirobe and Roshi for help.

Gives us a chance to spend time with several characters that either advances the plot or helps further develop the characters.

And stills fits within the series' style as it gives us action and comedy with characters we like. And the focus would still be on Goku and Vegeta they just now aren't the only ones we focus on all the time.

clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2025 7:51 am (Controversial opinion time) I think that the Japanese understand marketing far better than Americans do. One of the reasons imo that Manga outsells American comics is because American comics nowadays are aimed at everyone. And you know the adage about trying to please everyone? Yep - you end up pleasing no one.

To put this in American terms - Boys typically do not want a Barbie for Christmas and girls typically do not want an Action Man for Christmas (I believe it is known as a GI Joe in America). Normally a product aimed at one sex that ends up being enjoyed by both is because that product has terrific writing, and that is fine. Dragonball is one such example of ''a brilliant show enjoyed by both'' but Toriyama flat out admits that this was not his intention. He just wanted to make stories for boys.

I would point out that Hasbro with their shows did not want female GI. Joe or Transformers. And no male appeal in MLP. That boys were watching the show was considered a failing by the management. So is it that everything must appeal because owners do not understand marketing, or the public demanded it because we desired inclusivity because more than one demographic can enjoy something?

Nealithi wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2025 1:45 pm

clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2025 7:51 am (Controversial opinion time) I think that the Japanese understand marketing far better than Americans do. One of the reasons imo that Manga outsells American comics is because American comics nowadays are aimed at everyone. And you know the adage about trying to please everyone? Yep - you end up pleasing no one.

To put this in American terms - Boys typically do not want a Barbie for Christmas and girls typically do not want an Action Man for Christmas (I believe it is known as a GI Joe in America). Normally a product aimed at one sex that ends up being enjoyed by both is because that product has terrific writing, and that is fine. Dragonball is one such example of ''a brilliant show enjoyed by both'' but Toriyama flat out admits that this was not his intention. He just wanted to make stories for boys.

I would point out that Hasbro with their shows did not want female GI. Joe or Transformers. And no male appeal in MLP. That boys were watching the show was considered a failing by the management. So is it that everything must appeal because owners do not understand marketing, or the public demanded it because we desired inclusivity because more than one demographic can enjoy something?

If Hasbro didn't want female members of GI Joe, they'd not have made female characters in the toy line which we know they did. Scarlett after all was one of the original GI Joe figures.