Sfdebris.net

I've mentioned this before but one of my issues with Dragon Ball, and shonen in general, is Power Creepy. To be more accurate, this is a problem I had with Dragon Ball post King Piccolo Saga as the main theme in that case was just getting better in martial arts, characters didn't so much get more powerful but more skilled in combat and something I do prefer in OG Dragon Ball was the overall solid if not outright amazing choreography.

One of my favorite moments in the series in general, specifically towards the movies, was a fight scene between Goku and Garlic Jr.'s Minions when they pull swords out of their bodies and start swinging them at Goku.

One thing I haven't talked about before is Ultra Instinct from Dragon Ball Super which is seen as one of the best transformations in the series. I personally love UI as it's not about making yourself stronger but tapping into a state of mind as you stop thinking and work on instinct which makes you a better fighter (though I don't like full on UI as it feels more like a generic transformation).

One thing I did mention before is that the issue here is Frieza who has to be ridiculously OP both to show how screwed the heroes are and to justify the need for Goku to become a Super Saiyan. The problem is everything that comes after that where both heroes and villains keep needing to become more and powerful in order to create tension but the problem here is it's artificial tension and so we loose a lot of investment in what's going on.

When literal gods need to be involved and the characters themselves need to become Gods you kinda loose the audience after a while.

That's something I love about the series One-Punch Man which is basically a shonen protagonist AFTER his series is over with the idea that he is so powerful that no one can challenge him and he can defeat everyone in One-Punch. And he's so bored with everything that the one real challenge he gets is trying to squash a mosquito.

It's honestly hilarious that the only person who can believable offer him a real fight is Popeye The Sailor Man (thank you death battle) everyone else wouldn't be able to offer up a real challenge.

And even in hypothetical reboot this is kind of a problem because how do you keep the tension alive without getting rid of the stories fans love.

One example I can think of actually comes from the series itself with Kid Buu. Contrary to what the dub might say Kid Buu is actually NOT more powerful then the Buu's that came before him, he's pretty much as powerful as Goku and Vegeta but is basically invaluable as he can instantly recover from any attack. Goku has to resort to the Spirit Bomb and hope that it works this time as it failed about the last two people Goku used it against.

Another way around would be to give the more powerful power-ups and transformations serious drawbacks. For example, Super Saiyan 3 can only be used by Goku when he's dead or by Fusions who can handle the power BUT anyone else it's just to powerful and can, at most, only use it for a minute as it wrecks havoc with the body and is potentially lethal.

Saiyan God can only be used by one person at a time and requires a ritual to unlock, Ultra Instinct isn't a power up but a state of mind as mentioned before. And I would just cut out the, frankly, way to many Transformations to count.

I would keep the focus more on martial arts and getting more powers stop becoming relevant post Cell Saga. Buu is more dangerous because he's basically unkillable, can turn people into good and just eat them and has the power to absorb people which is more about giving them their skills and knowledge then gaining more power.

There is of course Beerus, Super Saiyan 4 and Broly aka Berserker Saiyans but I think these would be exceptions instead of the rule. Beerus is a literal God of destruction, Super Saiyan 4 is only ever unlocked by 2 characters and Berserker Saiyans are rare generic mutations that is only possessed by one character and his alternate universe counterpart.

That just leaves Super Saiyan 1 and 2 which I think needs to remain due to their thematic significance but just have it where it's hard to unlock and not something that anyone with Saiyan in their blood can do. Anything else in regards to Super Saiyan 1 and 2 is purely in the visual department and me and McAvoy have already talked about that point.

But I think this is really the best solution to the whole power creep problem, just stop one upping the power scale thing and make it more about the martial arts.

Thoughts?

Didn't you just say bringing in gods loses everyone? So why include Beerus at all?

The problem with power creep is it had a sharp upward slope. Train in 50+ gravity etc. Then the super rare super saiyan becomes dirt common.

I think the way to handle power creep is skill. The fighters are strong and fast. Goku uses the kamehameha so often people predict it and learn to avoid it. So Goku has to fight without it. Then he does not use it for so long another fighter comes up. Trouncing him soundly. "What no new tricks?" For a Goku "No, an old one. KA-Me-Haa-Mee- HA!"

Making it so most of the time a transformation is not needed at all. Just skill. Give the transformations a lower power ramp. Super Saiyan was supposed to be able to break planets. Each power up from their is just another infinity+1. Lower what the power up and make it so the transformation can't be held for long like a limit break.

Because Battle of the Gods is popular with fans as is Beerus. That and this is still more of a curiosity concept project rather then a passion project. I want to know what everyone's thoughts are on this and how to handle it in a hypothetical reboot.

Power creep became an issue once Toriyama introduced numbers into the series. Not even talking about Power Levels but also multipliers.

Kaio-Ken made it worse. Goku being at 8,000 could double or triple his power but it had a price. Overcharged his body and would wreck it soon or later. With the exception of Ginyu, he always had to use it against opponents that were many times stronger than him. Vegeta, Freiza and then the use of it in the Super anime.

But he got to the point where he was using the x10 or x20. Then SSJ is 50x. SSJ2 is 100x and SSJ4 is 400x.

Freiza really broke the power scaling though. It was already getting a bit out of hand before him, but it wasn't too bad. Vegeta was 18k and Goku while using Kaio-Kenx4 would have been 32k or higher using the Kamehameha. Only the Ginyu force would exceed that level. So it wasn't too bad.

Problem was trying to explain how Vegeta wet from not being able to defeat Racoome who would be in the 40-45k range to then being able to match Freiza's first form at 530k. Or Goku being 90k against Ginyu to 3,000,000 against Freiza before he uses the Kaio-ken.

The other thing is later on, the SSJ transformation just doesn't seem to be 50 or 100x over his base form anymore. Even though there was a huge difference when it came to Freiza.

So the easiest way of dealing with Power creep is just get rid of the numbers involved.

Treat it like the OG Dragonball. We just did the power scaling through who fought who and when they fought them.

Like for example, there was a point during the 23rd World Tournament where both Goku and Piccolo were injured and tired enough for even Tien to even tag in and maybe fight Piccolo on even terms. But dialogue would suggest otherwise that Piccolo would still mop thd floor with Tien. And that's when you use official power levels as Piccolo having 260 and Tien having 250. You would think a tired Piccolo would be below 250 right?

Or take the idea when Goku threw the Spirit Bomb at Freiza that he was totally thrashed. Could barely hold himself up. Goes SSJ for the first time and now he is fully capable of dominanting Freiza (anime made it look closer than it really was). SSJ being 50x on a tired and battered Goku technically shouldn't have given him the pure power to dominate Freiza at first.

You have to add things to this. Like Freiza was still recovering from the Spirit Bomb, the SSJ transformation acts like a big recharge, Goku started to recover his stamina and energy throughout the initial fight. Etc.