Sfdebris.net

(sigh) this is going to be... interesting.

Bigotry is stupid, choosing to hate people for the crime of not meeting the standards of "Normal" is a waste of time and energy and in the end is self-defeating. Hurting others will only end with hurting yourself which is and just as bad is choosing to let others be hurt because you don't see how it will hurt you is shortsighted and stupid best summed in in the First They Came poem by Pastor Martin Niemöller

"First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me"

We can all agree that bigotry is just a bad idea that gets nothing and in fact causes problems without solving any.

But what about in Speculative Fiction? I've touched on this in the question if the X-Men are a poor allegory for the mistreatment for minorities and talked about the mutant cure and how that was actually a pretty interesting talking point in how it can be applied to several minority groups but in the end is something unique to mutants since there is no drug that can force one to be "normal".

But then that raises a different point, would the bigotry we know in our world diminish when faced with new forms of life? In the Marvel universe alone we have Mutants, Aliens, AI, magical beings and literal Gods. I've no doubt that standard bigotry would still exist but I think many of those same people would drop it in favor of these new "Others". The mindset basically being, well, what we see in the real world.

"You maybe a disgusting (insert minority group name here) but at least you're a normal human unlike those (insert fictional minority group here)".

A "good" example of this is in Dragon Age. In the world of Thedas homophobia and box standard racism doesn't really exist. There seems to be a level of transphobia as shown in Inquisition and Veilguard but that's really the odd one out and in Veilguard doesn't feel very real to me.

But the reason such bigotry seems to be almost nonexistent is because other forms of stupidity have taken their place in this case hatred against Elves, humans and Qunari. There is notably less towards Dwarves but that's because they hold a big chunk of the economy in their pocket thanks to Lyrium but it's still there.

While homophobia might seem to exist it's not what you think, Tevinter has a don't ask don't tell and just continue the blood line and that's pretty much it and just about everyone is okay with it.

Same thing in Mass Effect and Babylon 5, different life has introduced different forms of bigotry and that new bigotry has resulted in the ones we are more familiar with pretty much going disappearing or being so diminished that seeing it is like coming across and unicorn... which are actually a thing in most fictional settings so that might be a bad example.

I've started work on a original Marvel Superhero inspired in part by Dreadnought (transgirl, gains superpowers goes on adventures) and in that series the fact that she's trans is almost never brought up. The villains don't care, her family already knew and excepted her, her friends also already knew and other superheroes couldn't care less.

The fact that she has magic is more of an issue for people and even that is barely brought up mainly because she has a secret identity and keeps those two parts of her life separate.

The one time it's brought up the moron is treated like the out of touch loser they all are while others are more focused on the current alien problem.

The only character who really is shocked by this is Silk aka Cindy Moon because she was dating her before she transitioned and now is wondering about her own sexuality because she's never had any interests in girls before yet she still feels an attraction towards this character.

This honestly isn't be wanting the Marvel Universe to be devoid of issues I have with the world I'm currently stuck in but rather just realizing it would make no sense in this world and trying to include it made no sense.

The villains issues with her is more a result of them hating her for being in their way and either they don't know and never find out that she's trans or if they do know most of them don't care. Still working on the story so it might come up but I can't think of many stories it could be used.

But yeah I honestly don't see a world where life from other words or where magic is real or that has AI that are fully self-aware where regular bigotry can still be as talked about.

I'm which do you think these idiots would be more interested in talking about, the person who has a different skin color or has change their sex or an idiot who an alien from another planet and the elf their talking about marrying?

In my latest Supervillainy Saga manuscript, I have this bit:

[The protagonist Gary has just found out his stepson, Larry, has been rejected from the Society of Superheroes for being trans]

"Yes, unfortunately I do," I said, annoyed. "President Omega 2.0 has been removing all the memorials to certain heroes like Stonewall and Two-Spirit. That’s in addition to his lawsuit that Ultragod got to his position through DSI. The Society of Superheroes was meant to be a place where the only thing that mattered is you wanted to be a hero. It shouldn't matter that you're, well, you. I mean, why did we start hating superpowered people, aliens, and robots if not to abandon our previous prejudices?"

Larry stared at me. “What now?”

“To quote the late great Terry Pratchett: ‘Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because—what with trolls and dwarfs and so on—speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green.’"

"Sadly, that didn't seem to be the case on Earth-A since here we were capable of multitasking hate," Larry said. "Or at least dumbassery."

That made me smile. "Dumbassery, certainly."

IRL we have a recurring moral panic about stopping catgirls using the litterbox in schools, which has never been a thing. Bigotry works best when there's no logic to it.

hammerofglass wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 3:59 pm IRL we have a recurring moral panic about stopping catgirls using the litterbox in schools, which has never been a thing. Bigotry works best when there's no logic to it.

It's not that there is no logic to it though - they are operating on a logic all of their own. And that makes them much more dangerous because to them, they are smart ones. To them, Jews running the world makes complete sense. To them, immigrants eating cats makes complete sense. To them, women should not be allowed to show their face in public. To them, men go to work and women stay at home with the apple pie in the oven.

It's a nice dream in Star Trek First Contact isn't it? That aliens will make us forget sexism, racism, bigotry etc. but I don't see it. Although there is one key point here which i think is actually VERY relevant to Winter's question: this epiphany comes AFTER all major governments have been wiped out and humans have been brought to the brink after decades of war. Both WW1 and WW2 did bring with it massive changes to how we think and live. I think that in the Star Trek universe, the Vulcans coming at that exact time after being led to us by a decommissioned nuclear missile is what led to the Star Trek future, not aliens arriving themselves. A few years before this and it may have been different.

2026 everyone. Set your clocks...

Riker: It is one of the pivotal moments in human history, Doctor. You get to make first contact with an alien race, and after you do, everything begins to change.
LaForge: Your theories on warp drive allow fleets of starships to be built and mankind to start exploring the Galaxy.
Troi: It unites humanity in a way no one ever thought possible when they realise they're not alone in the universe. Poverty, disease, war. They'll all be gone within the next fifty years.
Riker: But unless you make that warp flight tomorrow morning before eleven fifteen, none of it will happen.
Cochrane: And you people, you're all astronauts, ... on some kind of star trek?

clearspira wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 8:26 pm 2026 everyone. Set your clocks...

I thought First Contact was in 2063? Or are you talking about the Bell Riots?

TGLS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2025 1:45 pm

clearspira wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 8:26 pm 2026 everyone. Set your clocks...

I thought First Contact was in 2063? Or are you talking about the Bell Riots?

2026-2053 according to Memory Alpha. First Contact is indeed 2063. That is why Lily and Cochrane are so surprised to be attacked because the war was past history to them. The Bell Riots were 2024.

Such an extreme length of time is what I was trying to get at. It would take the dead flesh of the current world to be cut away over decades before we ever get rid today's bigotries. The Star Trek future required that destruction to get us ready for the coming of aliens - the alternative would have been that timeline where Cochrane guns them down.

CAN I JUST SAY... I HATE that Trek changed the fact social problems started to be looked into thanks to the actions of a poor black man showing his humanity and kindness but also rage at a broken system... to a white lady who found the cure to smelly farts on Jupiter? Like...I get what they were going for, but BLOW me.

Now to the actual discussion... I dunno, I like when both exist in a story. Let's use a little thing. In the Teen Titans show, Cyborg tells Starfire he knows what it's like to be discriminated against... he's a cyborg. Everyone says the obvious is, he's black. Sure, that is something he faced before... but I think the real one now is he's seen as 'a threat'. He's been crippled and lost limbs, and now is a tall robot like being who can lift cars and blast things apart with his cannon arm. Black men and women WOULD be scared of him for that... and white men and women who have zero racist tendicies would also be scared of him. Genuine racists can than use real fears to spread their hatred of black people, or the disabled. Cyborg IS disabled, by any definition.

Victor Stone is feared and hated for reasons he has no control over since birth, and now that he's a cyborg, it got worse. That is true for any black powered character in fiction set in modern day America. I really like Luke Cage, he's an amazing Marvel character, but I admit I would be intimidated by him if I met him. Until I got to know him and am reminded that he is actually one of the most reasonable guys in Marvel. VERY open about what he is and is not afraid to show it, and VERY confrontational... but he is VERY reasonable and understanding. When Jessica Jones took his baby (also hers) to the Avengers, when he lost all faith in the team (he ran his own Avengers team), he was pissed and argued with her a lot... but NEVER went for Danille. He wanted to talk with his wife and gave her respect by not forcing anything. He made it clear he thought she was wrong and dumb, but he never insulted her or kicked her ass. But people are afraid of him cause he can kill ya with a slam of his hands... or cause he's a 6'5 black man. Both exist. Bigotry is beyond just race, and hard to beat. Humans can multi task.

Nobody700 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 1:26 pm Now to the actual discussion... I dunno, I like when both exist in a story. Let's use a little thing. In the Teen Titans show, Cyborg tells Starfire he knows what it's like to be discriminated against... he's a cyborg. Everyone says the obvious is, he's black. Sure, that is something he faced before... but I think the real one now is he's seen as 'a threat'. He's been crippled and lost limbs, and now is a tall robot like being who can lift cars and blast things apart with his cannon arm. Black men and women WOULD be scared of him for that... and white men and women who have zero racist tendicies would also be scared of him. Genuine racists can than use real fears to spread their hatred of black people, or the disabled. Cyborg IS disabled, by any definition.

Victor Stone is feared and hated for reasons he has no control over since birth, and now that he's a cyborg, it got worse. That is true for any black powered character in fiction set in modern day America. I really like Luke Cage, he's an amazing Marvel character, but I admit I would be intimidated by him if I met him. Until I got to know him and am reminded that he is actually one of the most reasonable guys in Marvel. VERY open about what he is and is not afraid to show it, and VERY confrontational... but he is VERY reasonable and understanding. When Jessica Jones took his baby (also hers) to the Avengers, when he lost all faith in the team (he ran his own Avengers team), he was pissed and argued with her a lot... but NEVER went for Danille. He wanted to talk with his wife and gave her respect by not forcing anything. He made it clear he thought she was wrong and dumb, but he never insulted her or kicked her ass. But people are afraid of him cause he can kill ya with a slam of his hands... or cause he's a 6'5 black man. Both exist. Bigotry is beyond just race, and hard to beat. Humans can multi task.

Humans can multi-task. Very good quote. It's what I was trying to get at but you did it a lot better than me.

The Deus Ex series, particularly Human Revolution, is about bigotry towards the augmented. And there are those ''it is against God'' people of course. But most of it is classism. The people benefiting the most from augmentation are THE RICH. They can afford the augs and they can afford the neuroprozine. It is THE RICH who are getting faster, stronger, smarter, better whilst the poor are getting even more left behind. It is also implied that neuroprozine has created a form of indentured servitude, where if you leave your employer and its health plan, you die. And it is also implied that in some jobs augmentation is mandatory or at least heavily encouraged. The facility at the end of the game was built by augmented workers who were able to do ten times more work than an unaugmented human so of course they were the ones getting the jobs.

BUT - here's the thing. The head of the Illuminati? White. The rich corporate tycoon David Sarif? White. The tech geek Pritchard? White. Head of security Adam Jensen? White. The Head of Humanity First? White. The guy who invented augmentation? White. The only truly prominent characters who aren't white are the Chinese.

Racism, or at least the glass ceiling, still exists for black people.