Should [REDACTED] Have Been Killed in Dragon Age: The Veilguard?

[Winter]

Seriously I'm going into a major character death here that's a major spoil for the game don't read this and don't say I didn't warn you.

I'm of the opinion that killing Varric in DAV was a mistake. Not that I'm against the idea of killing off Varric and we do need something to push us again Solas and this is a character who was suppose to have died not once but twice. However, my issue is there was really no need for Varric to be in this game, or at least not as much as he was.

Varric's arc was complete in Inquisition, everything that was set up in DA2 saw resolution in DAI and it ended with Varric becoming Viscount of Kirkwall which is kinda a perfect end for him. He loves Kirkwall more than anyone else and unlike a lot of other characters this path is not dictated by the players but by Varric himself.

So for me, it feels like an unneeded change in a story that was already resolved.

Again not against the idea but think Varric should have sat this one out. He did his part and he and Solas were never really that close so him trying to reason with him seemed a little forced.

It also doesn't help that IMO this doesn't work on two fronts. First off for long time fans of the character this death hurts and might feel pointless and needlessly cruel. To see a character they've come to love killed in such an mean-spirited way that is also rather anti-climatic.

And for new comers Varric is just some guy they met half an hour ago so his death might not have any real weight.

However, I do think that Varric's death in this game could have worked with one simple change. Give us playable Origins and Varric is the one to recruit us.

It would be a nice call back to Origins and Duncan's role in that game as the one who recruited us in that game. Like Duncan in DAO Varric dies at the end of the first act (either by Solas' hands or one of the Elvan Gods) but that's not the end of him.

To twist the knife someone would take on Varric's form to manipulate Rook but this would be a one and done mission. Have it where we never actually see Varric die but Harding and possibly Rook notice something is off and by the end of the mission we figure it out.

Alternatively Varric appears to us in the Fade like what happened with the Divine in DAI and this is would be the mission where we save who ever is trapped in the Fade from DAI which gets even better if it's Hawke so Varric can help save his friend.

This would be a little less ambiguous than what we got in DAI with Justinia, this IS Varric or a lyrium ghost of him which as established in DAI is the same person through and through.

But this is the end of Varric's Journey, for everyone else to escape the fade he has to stay behind. This thus leaves us hope that he will comeback but for this game he is dead. This would also allow his narration to make more sense, Varric is watching all this from the fade and telling it to whoever is listening.

I feel this would be a better move instead of the way they went with and I think if given more time and less BS from EA this might have been the story the writers went with.

Thoughts?

[hammerofglass]

My main problem is that it's way too obvious because they did it so early in the game and gave him so many appearances. If we had the first conversations with him afterwards and then just say he went home to Kirkwall to recover (with Rook and the player assuming it's for recovery but really it's for a funeral) it would have worked so much better.

A few clues for you to possibly pick up on and feel clever or to notice on a replay are one thing, but by the third time he's in a group meeting and nobody looks at him or responds to his words it's just getting silly.

[Winter]

My main problem is that it's way too obvious because they did it so early in the game and gave him so many appearances. If we had the first conversations with him afterwards and then just say he went home to Kirkwall to recover (with Rook and the player assuming it's for recovery but really it's for a funeral) it would have worked so much better.

A few clues for you to possibly pick up on and feel clever or to notice on a replay are one thing, but by the third time he's in a group meeting and nobody looks at him or responds to his words it's just getting silly.

I actually figured it out soon after the tutorial with Harding talking to herself aka "Varric" and clearing being sad. I've been there before, far to many times and knew what it was and the rest just kinda confirmed my theory.

[hammerofglass]

My main problem is that it's way too obvious because they did it so early in the game and gave him so many appearances. If we had the first conversations with him afterwards and then just say he went home to Kirkwall to recover (with Rook and the player assuming it's for recovery but really it's for a funeral) it would have worked so much better.

A few clues for you to possibly pick up on and feel clever or to notice on a replay are one thing, but by the third time he's in a group meeting and nobody looks at him or responds to his words it's just getting silly.

I actually figured it out soon after the tutorial with Harding talking to herself aka "Varric" and clearing being sad. I've been there before, far to many times and knew what it was and the rest just kinda confirmed my theory.

For me it clicked a bit later in the first act; the way Bellara talks about Varric makes no sense if he's someone she knows.

[Winter]

My main problem is that it's way too obvious because they did it so early in the game and gave him so many appearances. If we had the first conversations with him afterwards and then just say he went home to Kirkwall to recover (with Rook and the player assuming it's for recovery but really it's for a funeral) it would have worked so much better.

A few clues for you to possibly pick up on and feel clever or to notice on a replay are one thing, but by the third time he's in a group meeting and nobody looks at him or responds to his words it's just getting silly.

I actually figured it out soon after the tutorial with Harding talking to herself aka "Varric" and clearing being sad. I've been there before, far to many times and knew what it was and the rest just kinda confirmed my theory.

For me it clicked a bit later in the first act; the way Bellara talks about Varric makes no sense if he's someone she knows.

You know, one of the reasons DAI is my favorite BioWare game is just how well it handles it's plot twists. Some are obvious for long time fans but the game still handles those twists well.

For example Blackwell, if you're a long time fan of the series you'd figure out rather quickly that he's not a Grey Warden but if you're starting with DAI then it's a big twist. But it works both ways, a long time fan will have figured out that he is not a Warden but that then leads to the next question, who is he and why is he pretending to be a Warden.

Another twist is who the main villain is, as anyone who played DA2 will have figured it out while new players will only just learn about Corypheus in this game but again, both work. New comers will want to learn more about this villain while a long time fan will want to know how he's still alive.

And other twists, the right of Tranquility, Varric knowing where Hawke is, and of course Solas being the Dreadwolf.

The Solas twist is perhaps the best as it's something neither fans of the series or new comers saw coming yet makes perfect sense when you think about it.

DAI also makes good use of it's plot twists and they all do what any good plot twist is suppose to do, twist the plot. They change what we thought we knew before the twist and change the direction of the story after the reveal.

This is my issue with a lot of the plot twists in DAV they don't really change what we thought we knew and the plot remains the same as they were before.

Varric being dead the whole time and that only being news to Rook, IMO, doesn't really change that much in the story looking back other then some lines of dialogue make a little more sense and it doesn't change our goal moving forward, we still have to stop Solas and the Elven Gods.

What's frustrating is how similar this is to DA2 which suffered a similar issue, it also had plot twists, sorta, but like with DAV it really didn't change what we knew looking back and while it does change the direction it's the only way the story could go.

Take Anders blowing up the Chantry. This is THE big moment in the game and is a plot twist. But looking back it doesn't change anything, Anders is a dick, we've known that for while now the only difference we see how much of a dick he is. And while this gets the Mage and Templar war started it was always going to happen both sides just needed the right excuse so it doesn't change the story going forward because peace never an option.

Even Dragon Age: Absolution handled this better with the Hera twist as we the person we thought was this honorable and noble person was a monster and though the main objective remains the same.

And there are others in DAV that also bug me and what bugs me is how obvious these twists are.

Like I said the twists i DAI work regardless if you're a long time fan or not as the nature of the twist is just different.

This even works in the other DLCs, the game takes it's time to build up both twists in their respective stories and both work.

And what makes them so impactful is it allows us to direct the story. Learning that the former Inquisitor was an Elven Mage is something that changes what we thought we knew about Thedas' history and the Seekers. And we can either tell the world or keep the lie going.

The titan works because the fallout needs to be explored in other games and is decently done in DAV. Could have been better but not bad all things considered.

DAI has so many plot twists and all are done masterfully IMO. I like that the characters even know some of the plot twists and are trying to let other characters know about them.

[hammerofglass]

DAI got me with the Solas twist because I immediately picked up Fen'Harel clues (wolf mandible necklace, no vallaslin)... and thought that was the god he worshiped.

[Winter]

DAI got me with the Solas twist because I immediately picked up Fen'Harel clues (wolf mandible necklace, no vallaslin)... and thought that was the god he worshiped.

I started the series with DAI and didn't pick on the clues at first. I did notice all the wolf statues but didn't pickup on their significance until What Pride Had Wrought and even then I didn't bring Solas with me that time so I didn't realize the true importance of them.

In base the game Fen'Harel is really only mentioned once in the game in a document that's easy to miss before he's talked about a few times in WPHW but we're distracted by the Ancient Elves and later the reveal that Flemith is Mythal (another great twist).

I also love how the game has so many twists it just gets them out of the way before they become an issue like Iron Bull being a Qunari Spy or Dorian being a Tevinter Mage that wants to help us. A running theme of DAI is "No one here is exactly what they seem."

Everyone has a secret and either doesn't tell you the truth or they themselves don't know the whole truth.

[Madner Kami]

So Varric's death, tell me more about it. As far as I gathered, he dies during the prologue, but apparently the main character doesn't know of that and fantasizes Varric being about? How does that come to pass? Is this just a trait of the MC's personality or something? From the outsider's view, this twist is utterly stupid. Afaik, this is the first appearance of Rook as a thing and somehow Varric is important enough to Rook, to escape reality and pretend he didn't die, even though Varric never ever mentioned this person before? How does that work out in the game's story?

[Winter]

So Varric's death, tell me more about it. As far as I gathered, he dies during the prologue, but apparently the main character doesn't know of that and fantasizes Varric being about? How does that come to pass? Is this just a trait of the MC's personality or something? From the outsider's view, this twist is utterly stupid. Afaik, this is the first appearance of Rook as a thing and somehow Varric is important enough to Rook, to escape reality and pretend he didn't die, even though Varric never ever mentioned this person before? How does that work out in the game's story?

The relationship between Rook and Varric is one of the odder points of the game. It's made clear that Varric and Rook have known one for a while but have only met recently. There's a 10 year time skip between DAI and DAV so there is enough time for the two have gotten to know each other and it's completely believable that the two had become friends in that time.

As for Rook being so badly affected by Varric's death that she see his ghost or something that's clearly more a meta subtext for players who would be affected by it.

So it's not badly written just, obvious and for me rather disappointing and odd for reasons I've already talked about.

[hammerofglass]

So Varric's death, tell me more about it. As far as I gathered, he dies during the prologue, but apparently the main character doesn't know of that and fantasizes Varric being about? How does that come to pass? Is this just a trait of the MC's personality or something? From the outsider's view, this twist is utterly stupid. Afaik, this is the first appearance of Rook as a thing and somehow Varric is important enough to Rook, to escape reality and pretend he didn't die, even though Varric never ever mentioned this person before? How does that work out in the game's story?

Wait, you haven't played it? I assumed you had and hated it from the strong confident opinions you had on other threads.

It's free on PS plus right now, you know.

In addition to what Winter said: Solas killed Varric more or less by accident, then Rook suffered a head injury at the same time. Solas fucked with Rook's head with blood magic to think Varric was only seriously wounded as a manipulation tactic. This all happens in the prolog.