Dragon Ball Super Goku vs. Post-Crisis Superman

[Yukaphile]

@SSJGodGoku I really hope you're joking. He doesn't solo characters like the Monitors, or True Darkseid, or The Presence, or Mr. Mxyzptlk, or just really any of the true god tiers of that verse.

@RobbyB1982 I do agree it depends on the writer, but... I mean, Goku is MFTL now. Flying to the sun in a few seconds means nothing at this point. His best modern speed feat is from New 52 where he flew around the universe in 60 days. That's maybe a bit slower than Beerus and Whis, but he was weakened, so yeah. As for weight-lifting, Goku was seen lifting something so heavy it sank into the ground once he took it off. No number given, but then he later tanked a black hole, as Superman has done at times. So yeah, I do agree Supes' high-end crazy feats outshine Goku's, but those are not the ones to use to illustrate that, lol.

No, no, no, no, no, I'm sorry, nice try, that is wrong. He sneezed away a solar system. He only moved a galaxy's worth of planets to another corner of the universe. And tanked the Big Bang, so... yeah, I agree Silver Age Superman wins, but... well, be accurate, okay? To the feats.

Plus Cosmic Armor Superman, lol. The singular strongest Superman. All of DBS is a toy compared to him.

[SSJGodGoku]

@SSJGodGoku I really hope you're joking. He doesn't solo characters like the Monitors, or True Darkseid, or The Presence, or Mr. Mxyzptlk, or just really any of the true god tiers of that verse.

Of course he does. Monitors are weak as hell, one of them got KO'd by Jason Todd in Countdown. Darkseid bled from a kick from Batman. Presence has no feats. Mxy lost to Superboy Prime who needed a powerup just to survive a blast that almost wiped out a universe, and Goku and Beerus were way beyond that in their fight.

Plus Cosmic Armor Superman, lol. The singular strongest Superman. All of DBS is a toy compared to him.

Nope, he had trouble with Mandrakk using 'the power of a trillion suns' which is barely more than 1 galaxy. Goku and Beerus were exchanging punches that each had the power to wipe out the universe, and SSJG Goku threw tons of those same punches at Jiren who effortlessly blocked them all with one finger, but SSJB Goku punched Jiren around and MUI Goku was destroying him.

[Yukaphile]

Are... are you trolling? Because those are low-ends. Low-ends. I could do the same. Goku got hit with a rock and taken out by a laser. And was scratched by a bullet. A bullet! You should look at high-end feats, not low-ends. Or at least pool high-ends and low-ends into something more consistent.

Clear case of hyperbole. Unless you really think the Flash saving 500,000 people from a nuclear blast really is just under lightspeed? The actual math says it's like 40,000,000,000,000 c. Cosmic Armor Superman is an 11th-dimensional construct created to protect the multiverse. That means he's past even the Omni-Kings, who I'd peg as comparable to Mxy. So low 5-D for both of them. And Goku is not stronger than Beerus, let alone Whis, any of the Angels, the Grand Priest, or the Omni-Kings!

[SSJGodGoku]

Are... are you trolling? Because those are low-ends. Low-ends. I could do the same. Goku got hit with a rock

Filler.

and taken out by a laser. And was scratched by a bullet. A bullet!

He had his guard down, that was explained. With Ultra Instinct that can't happen anymore.

You should look at high-end feats, not low-ends. Or at least pool high-ends and low-ends into something more consistent.

It's not my fault comics are inconsistent.

Clear case of hyperbole. Unless you really think the Flash saving 500,000 people from a nuclear blast really is just under lightspeed? The actual math says it's like 40,000,000,000,000 c.

Not if you take into account time dilation.

Cosmic Armor Superman is an 11th-dimensional construct created to protect the multiverse. That means he's past even the Omni-Kings, who I'd peg as comparable to Mxy.

That's hilarious. Zeno never lost to Superboy Prime and Zatanna.

So low 5-D for both of them. And Goku is not stronger than Beerus, let alone Whis, any of the Angels, the Grand Priest, or the Omni-Kings!

MUI Goku is much stronger than Beerus, because he is far stronger than Jiren, who Whis stated was beyond a God of Destruction. And that was before he even powered up.

Beerus at a tiny fraction of his power was able to casually throw universe-busting punches. Jiren and UI Goku were able to shake the entire World of Void just from powering up, which was stated to be infinite in size.

[Yukaphile]

It happened. It exists. You can't pretend it isn't real.

I do accept the "guard is down" argument, but Goku isn't the only one. Vegeta had his tail cut off by a damn sword. From an ordinary human. How do you explain that?

DBZ is just as inconsistent, though admittedly it's only gotten worse in recent years.

Not really.

Zeno is like the Saitama of DBS, or so it stands now. He's the strongest. But in another universe, that's not the case. And again, given his showings, I'd peg him at 5-D. Superboy-Prime also has legitimate showings that put Episode 12 to shame, like tanking a universe being blown up. Your attempt to somehow make losing to him seem like a nerfing really doesn't hold up well to scrutiny. So far the only character to tank said blast was Zeno surviving 12 universes being wiped out. Also, I'll call out the double standard here. If one of the Zenos lost to Goku, would you still be calling foul? Because as it stands now, he's nothing compared to them.

There is still confusion as to whether or not Jiren was stronger than Beerus, or just his universe's God of Destruction. Time will tell. But for narrative purposes, I seriously don't think Beerus has been surpassed. Not yet. They're too popular and shouldn't be relegated to side characters, at least that's probably the thinking Toei is doing now.

I wouldn't say casually. They were panting and swearing. Not full power, but this is why I tend to think the 70% line from the movie carried over to the actual show. And yeah, they vibrated a pocket dimension of nothingness. So? The World of Void is rather nebulous as to what it is, and what kind of what this is. If it's indeed infinite, it would put Goku at infinite 3-D or low 4-D, or at best peak 4-D, which is consistent with him standing up to Hit's time-skipping powers. Still far below the Omni-Kings, which is also consistent.

[SSJGodGoku]

It happened. It exists. You can't pretend it isn't real.

I never did. It was explained why it happened though.

I do accept the "guard is down" argument, but Goku isn't the only one. Vegeta had his tail cut off by a damn sword. From an ordinary human. How do you explain that?

You think Yajirobe is an ordinary human? You just disqualified yourself from debating Dragonball ever again. He had a PL of over 900 at the time. Besides, a tail is specifically a Saiyan's weak point. That's why most of them had their tails removed.

Zeno is like the Saitama of DBS, or so it stands now. He's the strongest. But in another universe, that's not the case. And again, given his showings, I'd peg him at 5-D.

Shin said that no matter who the opponent is, Zeno can't ever be defeated. That's canon.

Superboy-Prime also has legitimate showings that put Episode 12 to shame, like tanking a universe being blown up.

That's actually nothing compared to the Goku vs. Beerus fight, because as I already mentioned, he only survived that due to a powerup and the blast caused him to lose that powerup. Also, it didn't even wipe out the whole universe, there was a plant on the far end of it that survived. The Time Trapper also had to rescue him from it. Meanwhile Goku and Beerus were trading countless punches which each had the power to instantly wipe out the universe, which was directly stated by the narrator. So at most you could say that the amped SBP might be able to just barely survive a single punch from SSJG Goku or a massively holding back Beerus.

Your attempt to somehow make losing to him seem like a nerfing really doesn't hold up well to scrutiny. So far the only character to tank said blast was Zeno surviving 12 universes being wiped out. Also, I'll call out the double standard here. If one of the Zenos lost to Goku, would you still be calling foul? Because as it stands now, he's nothing compared to them.

They would only ever 'lose' by being tricked, as their personalities are childlike.

There is still confusion as to whether or not Jiren was stronger than Beerus, or just his universe's God of Destruction. Time will tell.

It was stated that Belmod was also stronger than Beerus. Beerus < Belmod < Jiren< MUI Goku.

But for narrative purposes, I seriously don't think Beerus has been surpassed. Not yet. They're too popular and shouldn't be relegated to side characters, at least that's probably the thinking Toei is doing now.

You have to ignore the evidence to say that.

I wouldn't say casually. They were panting and swearing. Not full power, but this is why I tend to think the 70% line from the movie carried over to the actual show.

Obvious nonsense. Afterwards when training on Beerus' planet, Whis compared Goku's power to a small sapling compared to the gigantic tree that Beerus lived in. And even with SSJB (which is much stronger than SSJG) amplified by Kaio-ken 10 and even 20 times Beerus wasn't threatened. Do you even know how Kaio-ken works?

And yeah, they vibrated a pocket dimension of nothingness. So? The World of Void is rather nebulous as to what it is, and what kind of what this is. If it's indeed infinite, it would put Goku at infinite 3-D or low 4-D, or at best peak 4-D, which is consistent with him standing up to Hit's time-skipping powers. Still far below the Omni-Kings, which is also consistent.

But you forget they weren't even at their most powerful levels when they did that.

[SSJGodGoku]

BTW dimensional tiering is nonsense. Different fictions have different definitions of what 'dimension' means.

[Yukaphile]

Fair enough.

Me? That's a laugh. Yajirobe is not trained in ki. He doesn't know how to use it. So that's not a sword infused with ki essence or whatever. And Vegeta had trained away the tail weakness. Confirmed. So no reason it would work other than blatant asspull, or, he was caught off-guard, and this is a low-end.

For now. But that could change. DBS isn't over. Furthermore, that's not true outside his verse. Otherwise, you'd have a legit claim for saying Saitama beats characters like the Living Tribunal. Which is just utter nonsense. What you're doing is defaulting into a no-limits fallacy.

Surviving a universal heat wave of concussive shock and exploding energy > physical power cracking the universe in three hits. It is more impressive in the sense it finally brought respect back to DBZ and got people to take the fandom more seriously, and proved Screwattack completely wrong. But there are beings in DC and Marvel who hold universes in the palm of their hands. I don't see Goku doing that any time soon. At all. Hell, even the best the Omni-King could do was hold stars, planets, and galaxies in his fingers. Very impressive feat, and confirms for me one of them is on Mxy's level. But is still only low 5-D.

You certain of that? Because I'm fairly confident Goku will surpass the Zenos someday, and then learn there's a whole NEW plane. That would then enter the Dragon Ball Hyperverse.

I don't recall that. What episode? Point being they said he was as strong as a God of Destruction, which is still vague. Could mean the weakest. Could mean the mid tier. I don't think Beerus would be surpassed yet. If Goku had done so, they'd have made a bigger deal out of it. Beerus would have flat-out said Goku was past him. But you know, it is an Angel technique, so possible. Maybe Goku really is Angel level now, which I gotta admit, would be epic. Though of course, he has a long way to go before he's casual Ultra Instinct like they are.

What evidence? They said "God of Destruction." Nowhere did they say Beerus himself. Though tbh this is less me denying it and more superstition it's gonna be retconned again. DBS has the worst retcons in Dragon Ball history. There's no singular creative consistent vision, it's just... bleh. All over the place.

And listen. Power scaling mattered back in the day when Toriyama was reined by his editors. He may have complained they were stifling his creativity, but they knew what they were doing, narratively and structurally. But then since the Buu Saga onward power scaling has been impossible. It's been rejected in terms of actual feats. I take that interpretation to be hyperbole, Whis saying they have a long way to go, especially since it doesn't signify anything unless you seriously believe Beerus is high multiversal or something, or that it's them in their base forms, and the god forms increase that chance somewhat, especially since Beerus looked nervous about Blue Kaioken. Because yeah, he was sweating and looked a bit unnerved. He tried to deny, but it was clear he felt he'd underestimated Goku. What show were you watching?

OMG... just... OMG... how... why? Again, power scaling is meaningless since Toriyama's editors stopped reining him in. Just focus on actual feats. It's especially hard since no numbers have been given to the multipliers at all.

Dimensional tiering > power scaling. It's inconsistent, though not as inconsistent as it's gotten in DBS. There are very clear cosmic tiers in fiction. And the big problem here is that the structure of the multiverse in DBZ is not given a lot of detail. We know it's twelve universes, and that Zeno is still bound to timelines. See, doesn't that right there tell you he's not almighty? If he stood above all, the concept of timelines would mean nothing to him. Meanwhile, the high tiers in Marvel and DC warp space and time like it's nothing.

[SSJGodGoku]

Fair enough.

Me? That's a laugh. Yajirobe is not trained in ki. He doesn't know how to use it.

That's a blatant lie. He trained with Kami in preparation for the Saiyans' arrival.

So that's not a sword infused with ki essence or whatever. And Vegeta had trained away the tail weakness. Confirmed.

Only the weakness that causes them to be paralyzed by someone grabbing their tail. Not the durability of the tail itself.

So no reason it would work other than blatant asspull, or, he was caught off-guard, and this is a low-end.

He was off-guard but Yajirobe is much stronger than you give him credit for.

For now. But that could change. DBS isn't over. Furthermore, that's not true outside his verse. Otherwise, you'd have a legit claim for saying Saitama beats characters like the Living Tribunal. Which is just utter nonsense. What you're doing is defaulting into a no-limits fallacy.

It's not a fallacy if it's a canon fact. Zeno has the power to erase anything. He could erase all of Marvel and DC if he wanted to.

Surviving a universal heat wave of concussive shock and exploding energy > physical power cracking the universe in three hits.

That's completely dishonest. After Goku learned how to counter Beerus' strikes perfectly and cancel out their power, it was stated that each individual punch could have wiped out the universe if it wasn't countered.

It is more impressive in the sense it finally brought respect back to DBZ and got people to take the fandom more seriously, and proved Screwattack completely wrong. But there are beings in DC and Marvel who hold universes in the palm of their hands. I don't see Goku doing that any time soon.

Only because he's not big enough. But he has way more power than that.

At all. Hell, even the best the Omni-King could do was hold stars, planets, and galaxies in his fingers. Very impressive feat, and confirms for me one of them is on Mxy's level. But is still only low 5-D.

Again, stop with the dimensional tiering nonsense. You know very well that has no consistent definition.

You certain of that? Because I'm fairly confident Goku will surpass the Zenos someday, and then learn there's a whole NEW plane. That would then enter the Dragon Ball Hyperverse.

Pretty sure. But Goku is already stronger than anyone in DC or Marvel, by far.

I don't recall that. What episode?

https://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Vermoud

In the anime, he was implied by Whis to be stronger than Beerus.

Beerus lost the arm wrestling match to him. He tried to say it didn't count but he was just being a sore loser.

Point being they said he was as strong as a God of Destruction, which is still vague. Could mean the weakest. Could mean the mid tier.

Whis stated that Jiren was BEYOND a God of Destruction. And that was before Jiren had even released his full power. And even after that he tapped into an even greater power. Only an idiot would deny that Jiren >>>>>>>>>>>> Beerus.

I don't think Beerus would be surpassed yet.

Too bad. You're wrong.

If Goku had done so, they'd have made a bigger deal out of it. Beerus would have flat-out said Goku was past him.

No he wouldn't have. He would never admit that unless he had to.

But you know, it is an Angel technique, so possible. Maybe Goku really is Angel level now, which I gotta admit, would be epic. Though of course, he has a long way to go before he's casual Ultra Instinct like they are.

Goku has mastered Ultra Instinct, when he can access that form and maintain it at will he will be just as good with it as Whis.

What evidence? They said "God of Destruction." Nowhere did they say Beerus himself. Though tbh this is less me denying it and more superstition it's gonna be retconned again. DBS has the worst retcons in Dragon Ball history. There's no singular creative consistent vision, it's just... bleh. All over the place.

Says the person arguing for DC Comics.

And listen. Power scaling mattered back in the day when Toriyama was reined by his editors. He may have complained they were stifling his creativity, but they knew what they were doing, narratively and structurally. But then since the Buu Saga onward power scaling has been impossible. It's been rejected in terms of actual feats. I take that interpretation to be hyperbole, Whis saying they have a long way to go, especially since it doesn't signify anything unless you seriously believe Beerus is high multiversal or something, or that it's them in their base forms, and the god forms increase that chance somewhat, especially since Beerus looked nervous about Blue Kaioken.

He wasn't nervous. He stated it wouldn't be a threat to him. This is proven later when Arale is able to match SSJB Goku but Beerus easily defeats her, and when Sidra's Energy of Destruction was killing Goku but Beerus casually blew it away. 100% Beerus is at least thousands of times stronger than SSJG Goku in the BoG arc.

Because yeah, he was sweating and looked a bit unnerved. He tried to deny, but it was clear he felt he'd underestimated Goku. What show were you watching?

That was before it was revealed that he hardly used any of his power at all. In the episodes afterwards Beerus while sleeping was able to terrify Goku and Vegeta. Beerus was going to destroy Goku for bugging Zeno about the ToP.

OMG... just... OMG... how... why? Again, power scaling is meaningless since Toriyama's editors stopped reining him in. Just focus on actual feats. It's especially hard since no numbers have been given to the multipliers at all.

You can't ignore powerscaling like that. It's what most of the franchise is based on. If you go only by feats than Master Roshi who destroyed the moon back in the 21st Budokai is stronger than someone like the Grand Priest who never destroyed a moon.

Dimensional tiering > power scaling.

No. It's bullshit. All you're doing is assigning random numbers to things without explaining what they mean. Dimensions in fiction can be anything. You can have a guy with 5 trillion dimensions but no more power than a street leveler. You can have a being that is only 2-dimensional yet a threat to the universe. There was an episode of SJA where a spaceship had a 20-dimensional shield, according to your logic that means it's stronger than all of DC.

It's inconsistent, though not as inconsistent as it's gotten in DBS. There are very clear cosmic tiers in fiction. And the big problem here is that the structure of the multiverse in DBZ is not given a lot of detail. We know it's twelve universes, and that Zeno is still bound to timelines. See, doesn't that right there tell you he's not almighty? If he stood above all, the concept of timelines would mean nothing to him. Meanwhile, the high tiers in Marvel and DC warp space and time like it's nothing.

Hit and Whis warp time but they can be overpowered unlike Zeno. In the manga of DBS when he destroyed Infinite Zamasu the time ring for the future timeline broke completely, meaning the timeline ceased to exist.

[SSJGodGoku]

Also it was stated that Jiren is the strongest opponent in the history of Dragonball as of DBS episode 129:

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/966884346635300869

That proves he is stronger than Beerus.