What is the general term for "similarity between (elements of) 2 works"?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Consistency

1.
conformity in the application of something, typically that which is necessary for the sake of logic, accuracy, or fairness.

Replace logic, accuracy, or fairness with "dramatic narrative."

In case you aren't trolling, I've no idea what you're talking about or how this relates to my question lol

Other than the "Rule of Drama" and related pages, I'm currently not aware what the TVT pages covering the area of the "logic vs. narrative" and stuff like that, are called; lol; I'll tell you when I find out.

I don't know man. You're asking for a general term then you start bringing up specific tropes. Then you say I think it's just a specific generic term.

If you don't understand what consistency means, or how it relates to "similarity between 2 works" (like in the form of a noun), then I'm at a loss at how to explain.

After some quick reading, the word you're looking for seems to be Intertextuality.

Intertextuality covers:
Allusion - referring to something covertly or indirectly.
Quotation - referring to something directly.
Plagiarism - copying from another work
Translation - when you move a work from one language to another
Calque - quotation of a literal translation
Pastiche - imitating the style or character of another's work, without mockery.
Parody - Pastiche with mockery.

Hm, I was looking around on Wikipedia right before posting this thread, and according to its article on "intertextuality" it's a more specific thing where a work can be only understood if you catch all its references etc. to other stuff;

so another subform of the "term x" I'm looking for lol

Looked around those wiki pages, the "see also" parts etc., and haven't managed to find it there as of now; hm, there's no way it doesn't exist right?

this is kind of of the conclusion I came to as well for intertextuality. I got the feeling that you were talking about a more general assessment of a work while intertextuality makes me think of specific moments of referential evocation (at least as far as suspected evocative intent of a scene).

I admit that consistency is probably pretty dull for a descriptor.

[KitWargSpectacle]

Consistency

1.
conformity in the application of something, typically that which is necessary for the sake of logic, accuracy, or fairness.

Replace logic, accuracy, or fairness with "dramatic narrative."

In case you aren't trolling, I've no idea what you're talking about or how this relates to my question lol

Other than the "Rule of Drama" and related pages, I'm currently not aware what the TVT pages covering the area of the "logic vs. narrative" and stuff like that, are called; lol; I'll tell you when I find out.

I don't know man. You're asking for a general term then you start bringing up specific tropes. Then you say I think it's just a specific generic term.

No no - "tropes" are things with many examples from various works;

a similar shot, or scene, or plot, between only 2 or 3 movies, does not amount to a "trope" (certainly not according to TVT's or ATT's site rules).

I'm talking about a "general term" for all types of "similarities between 2 works", i.e. reference / allusion / homage / rip-off / influence / accidental reselblances etc.

Clear now lol?

If you don't understand what consistency means, or how it relates to "similarity between 2 works" (like in the form of a noun), then I'm at a loss at how to explain.

I've no idea how "similar plots between these 2 movies" or "similar shots from these 2 movies" or "similar phrase berween these 2 songs" can be described as "consistency" in any way - or have anything in particular to do with events being driven by logic vs. dramatic narrative?

You seem to have been talking about sth else entirely.

(Yeah, if you've got like 2 post-apocalyptic movies both playing in the desert with orange tint etc., then maybe you can describe that as some kinda stylistic "consistency";

either way that term wouldn't fit, because you can find such "consistency" between lots of similar works, which would then qualify as a trope - and I'm looking for a term that refers to individual similarities between singular works specifically; like "allusion" or "rip-off", you know.


Also if a reader sees "consistency" as a subpage title, he'll go like whaaaaaaat, wtf is that lol; so not a fitting choice, all in all).

After some quick reading, the word you're looking for seems to be Intertextuality.

Intertextuality covers:
Allusion - referring to something covertly or indirectly.
Quotation - referring to something directly.
Plagiarism - copying from another work
Translation - when you move a work from one language to another
Calque - quotation of a literal translation
Pastiche - imitating the style or character of another's work, without mockery.
Parody - Pastiche with mockery.

Hm, I was looking around on Wikipedia right before posting this thread, and according to its article on "intertextuality" it's a more specific thing where a work can be only understood if you catch all its references etc. to other stuff;

so another subform of the "term x" I'm looking for lol

Looked around those wiki pages, the "see also" parts etc., and haven't managed to find it there as of now; hm, there's no way it doesn't exist right?

this is kind of of the conclusion I came to as well for intertextuality. I got the feeling that you were talking about a more general assessment of a work while intertextuality makes me think of specific moments of referential evocation (at least as far as suspected evocative intent of a scene).

I admit that consistency is probably pretty dull for a descriptor.

Eh I don't mind "dull" if it's clear, not confusing to any reader, and matches the content of the subpage.


An example of "intertextuality", off the top of my head, would be sth like "Karsi's death scene from GoT's Hardhome sequence resembles the scene from NotLD where a mother is too paralyzed from seeing her zombified child to fight back / run - which may boost the interpretation that those wight children were her own, gone missing at some earlier point";

as it happens, such a scenario was NOT intended - but whatever lol; just an illustrating example.



On the other hand, "the score from that scene sounds strikingly similar / possibly directly influenced to the beginning of the EpIX teaser" (with nothing about what that might reveal about that speeder Rey was dodging) is not intertextuality.

So I'm mostly talking about stuff like that here.

[KitWargSpectacle]

Hm ok, just looked at Wikipedia's disambiguation page for "consistency" and found nothing about media/trope analysis.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

If you don't understand what consistency means, or how it relates to "similarity between 2 works" (like in the form of a noun), then I'm at a loss at how to explain.

I've no idea how "similar plots between these 2 movies" or "similar shots from these 2 movies" or "similar phrase berween these 2 songs" can be described as "consistency" in any way - or have anything in particular to do with events being driven by logic vs. dramatic narrative?

You seem to have been talking about sth else entirely.

(Yeah, if you've got like 2 post-apocalyptic movies both playing in the desert with orange tint etc., then maybe you can describe that as some kinda stylistic "consistency";

Yeah. With all do respect, that's sort of what I meant by dull. The point wasn't really to be unclear lol.

But, with consistency, I don't know, it just seems like you could incorporate it in like a chemical substance also.

2.
the way in which a substance, typically a liquid, holds together; thickness or viscosity.

You can use that as a very specific frame of term to describe the artistic attributes of a movie that don't necessarily get captured in discrete moments like intertextuality does. I mean, it's not exactly precedented strongly, but I think it's very valid in terminology science none the less.

either way that term wouldn't fit, because you can find such "consistency" between lots of similar works, which would then qualify as a trope - and I'm looking for a term that refers to individual similarities between singular works specifically; like "allusion" or "rip-off", you know.

I mean I think it's just a matter of precision or tuning. Maybe a term that you could intersect is nuance? I mean to my eye it seems more tied to interpretative aspects, typically to the real world, but I think that might just be the general framework for comparing one work to another, possibly with an inferiority/superiority dynamic? Not sure about that myself.

On the other hand, "the score from that scene sounds strikingly similar / possibly directly influenced to the beginning of the EpIX teaser" (with nothing about what that might reveal about that speeder Rey was dodging) is not intertextuality.

So I'm mostly talking about stuff like that here.

Yes that's right, it'txlty adds context from a dislocated piece of work, as I think might be a concise way for me to put it. It's kind of a juxtaposition of continuity framing, or mutually exclusive in particular.

edit: Now between nuance and consistency. To get more basic, I would probably use effect as the most basic, which is too watered down. Also narration comes to mind as well as projection.

[KitWargSpectacle]

If you don't understand what consistency means, or how it relates to "similarity between 2 works" (like in the form of a noun), then I'm at a loss at how to explain.

I've no idea how "similar plots between these 2 movies" or "similar shots from these 2 movies" or "similar phrase berween these 2 songs" can be described as "consistency" in any way - or have anything in particular to do with events being driven by logic vs. dramatic narrative?

You seem to have been talking about sth else entirely.

(Yeah, if you've got like 2 post-apocalyptic movies both playing in the desert with orange tint etc., then maybe you can describe that as some kinda stylistic "consistency";

Yeah. With all do respect,

Are you an NJ mobster or what lol

that's sort of what I meant by dull. The point wasn't really to be unclear lol.

But, with consistency, I don't know, it just seems like you could incorporate it in like a chemical substance also.

2.
the way in which a substance, typically a liquid, holds together; thickness or viscosity.

Hm ok what does "this scene from movie a has some very similar shots to that scene from movid b" have to do with anything "holding together like a viscuous liquid"?

*Maybe* you're referring to the way the world of media is somehow held together and intervowen by these similarities and patterns, however I'm looking for a more no-nonsense approach here - and even to the extent that applies, it applies to all the multi-example *tropes* on the site as well lol; guess they could've named it "TVConsistency" instead lol

I'm looking for a term that CAN'T be applied to widespread tropes, and is immediately understood as referring to singular cases by a reader who sees the subpage link.

You can use that as a very specific frame of term to describe the artistic attributes of a movie that don't necessarily get captured in discrete moments like intertextuality does. I mean, it's not exactly precedented strongly, but I think it's very valid in terminology science none the less.

I've no idea what "artistic attributes that don't get captured by discrete moments" is supposed to mean? Especially in this context, where I *am* exclusively talking about "discrete moments" lol

either way that term wouldn't fit, because you can find such "consistency" between lots of similar works, which would then qualify as a trope - and I'm looking for a term that refers to individual similarities between singular works specifically; like "allusion" or "rip-off", you know.

I mean I think it's just a matter of precision or tuning. Maybe a term that you could intersect is nuance? I mean to my eye it seems more tied to interpretative aspects, typically to the real world, but I think that might just be the general framework for comparing one work to another, possibly with an inferiority/superiority dynamic? Not sure about that myself.

Lol and I'm not sure what you're talking about at this point.

What "precision tuning"? What "nuance", nuance of what? "Interpretative" what? Intertextuality can be "interpretative" but we're no longer talking about that are we?

What real world?

What inferiority/superiority? You mean the subset of cases where you can say "this movie took from that movie and improved on that shot / did it worse than the original"?
Well ok I do mean to include such judgements lol, as it happens.

On the other hand, "the score from that scene sounds strikingly similar / possibly directly influenced to the beginning of the EpIX teaser" (with nothing about what that might reveal about that speeder Rey was dodging) is not intertextuality.

So I'm mostly talking about stuff like that here.

Yes that's right, it'txlty adds context from a dislocated piece of work, as I think might be a concise way for me to put it. It's kind of a juxtaposition of continuity framing, or mutually exclusive in particular.

What "it"? Intertextuality?

edit: Now between nuance and consistency.

Hm ok so what is this alternate meaning of "nuance" that you're using here?

Are you saying I should be nuanced in the way I describe those comparisons instead of just going "here similar lol"? Well yeah as it happens I do wanna do that - TVT's "Suspiciously Similar Songs" page, for instance, seems to be exactly that, and I'm interested in more organization, context description, analysis of the similarities and differences etc.

However I have serious doubts that you were referring to anything close to that lol - can't tell from your text, anyway.

To get more basic, I would probably use effect as the most basic, which is too watered down. Also narration comes to mind as well as projection.

What effect, what narration and especially what "projection"? None of those are even remotely fitting candidates for the term I'm looking for - are you saying you would add stuff about narration and "effects" if you were describing these homages somewhere? Or what?

I can't tell if you're way interlectually and academically way over my head and flaunting it (i.e. using a bunch of fancy words without being clear about their meaning or your statements) or just completely on drugs duuuuude lol

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I'm not sure I follow. I'm familiar with what intertextuality is and what you're saying. You're mining for a term of some specificity that no one has been able to really center around. If it's a very media specific term or of formal studies then that's going to be very precise. If TV Tropes etc.. follows a formally developed lexicon that it is your looking for, then pardon me for not knowing that or something.

I'm not being overly confusing here. It's also rather tedious to keep unpacking these things in escalating manner like a lot of people I've had contentious conversations with in the past. If that's too complicated, then I guess I'll just stop there/here. Sorry for the miscommunication.

[KitWargSpectacle]

I'm not sure I follow. I'm familiar with what intertextuality is and what you're saying. You're mining for a term of some specificity that no one has been able to really center around.

Well it's a *less* specific term than intertextuality, since intertextuality is a subtype of it.

Although so far we don't know if such a term even exists lol (although if it doesn't, that should probably count as an oversight by the academics).

If it's a very media specific term or of formal studies then that's going to be very precise. If TV Tropes etc.. follows a formally developed lexicon that it is your looking for, then pardon me for not knowing that or something.

Well they do adopt formal terms along with popular terms and coining their own slang, for various different tropes;

if I'm to spontaneously create a new subpage type (note - ATT's "subpages", i.e. the things at the top of the work page, are called "namespaces" on TVT and can't be spontaneously created by users on TVT; however users can spontaneously create a new / non-standard subpage on ATT;
new *tropes* do need to be proposed on the Trope Workshop page though, apparently),
I'd rather it be sth no-nonsense, clear/descriptive and preferably an already existing phrase or term.

Doesn't NEED to be from academia, can also be a term coined on forum discussions or by video essayists etc.

I'm not being overly confusing here. It's also rather tedious to keep unpacking these things in escalating manner like a lot of people I've had contentious conversations with in the past. If that's too complicated, then I guess I'll just stop there/here. Sorry for the miscommunication.

I'm not gonna escalate anything or do contentious stuff lol; I just had the impression that you were either trolling or on weed or sth, however you were going through analysis/intertextuality stuff that you're familiar with, I take. Everything's cool lol

[TGLS]

Why not just make two pages: Allusions and Pastiches? Or maybe three: Allusions, Pastiches and References? Homages tend to fit in either of the two categories, except when they're really obvious like the Alex Trebek title cards in recent Jeopardy episodes.

[KitWargSpectacle]

Why not just make two pages: Allusions and Pastiches? Or maybe three: Allusions, Pastiches and References? Homages tend to fit in either of the two categories, except when they're really obvious like the Alex Trebek title cards in recent Jeopardy episodes.

Ah, unfamiliar with that one lol;


My main issue is that most of the time I don't know how intentional/subconscious/accidental those are, or whether they're meant primarily as "tips o' the hat" or rather "influences" etc.;

making 2 or several such subpages is entirely sensible, but there needs to be some, idk, default "limbo" category for the yet undetermined ones.


References, allusions, homages and pastiches can be separate pages too, although they're all subtypes of the "intentional (and meant to be noticed)" kind, which itself is different from subconscios/accidental, as well as plagiarism/rip-off and that whole sliding scale.

And often enough there's uncertainty about which one of those one's looking at; sometimes resolvable through a quick google/wiki search, at other times anything but.

[Madner Kami]

The word you are looking for is "Similarity/Similarities".