On religion (in particular Christianity), rationality, and this forum - are we allowed to discuss it?

[Ixthos]

So let me answer your questions.

There's always been a degree of syncretism in religion. I think it's possible that some people know the gods I worship by another name, but I'm wary of over-universalizing. People like to draw a lot into their grand unified theory of mythology. For example, while I accept Aphrodite and Venus as basically the same deity, I'm less sold on the Astarte connection.

I'm bisexual myself, but I believe that gay bars are spaces sacred to Dionysus. Bars in general are Dionysian spaces with the consumption of alcohol, but throw in a safe space for same-sex attraction, frequent drag shows, and pulsing Lady Gaga music and it's a perfect fit. Does that answer your question?

In terms of awareness, I believe they hear prayers and receive acts of worship. Whether they actually need human worship or not, I believe it pleases them. As for communication, opinions and experiences vary widely within the NeoPagan world. I myself sometimes look for signs, but never get anything close to direct contact, visions, etc.

To be honest, it is interesting to read about this. Worshipping or at least believing in what most would call 'dead gods' or 'false gods'.

Personally I view the different gods (like the ones you havd mentioned) as one of the reasons why I don't believe in any God or gods.

I'm still planning on responding to Fuzzy's further response (and thank you again Fuzzy - even though I disagree with you I think this is helping me gain a better understanding of your views and modern Paganism), but isn't this attitude kind of like saying that, because snake oil salesmen exist, or proponents of pseudoscience, that all medicine is a scam and all science is pseudoscience? If I may, have you read through the data point post I made earlier, and if so what do you think of it and the data?

That is rather pithy, though being pithy in and of itself doesn't make something right, anymore than being able to reword someone else's views in a comedic value means they lost the argument. On the poem's idea though, wouldn't the immortality of the Jewish faith be a sign against this?

(Also, complete side note, but as we were discussing paganism earlier, and you mentioned worshipping the hammer, it brought to mind my favourite computer game series - Thief. Spoilery cutscenes to follow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmdJew4PhdI (hmmm ... interesting worsd in that URL ...)

The general idea though is that the major religion in the setting is the Order of the Hammer - the Hammerites - who worship the Master Builder, and the antagonist in the first game is the leader of the Pagans, a religion that was displaced by the Hammerites. The main character doesn't care for either of them, but at various times he has worked with both of them.)

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

*beatnik finger snaps*

And yet, the idols that fell rise again. That's the thing about gods. They die a lot, but they also excel at coming back.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

So let me answer your questions.

There's always been a degree of syncretism in religion. I think it's possible that some people know the gods I worship by another name, but I'm wary of over-universalizing. People like to draw a lot into their grand unified theory of mythology. For example, while I accept Aphrodite and Venus as basically the same deity, I'm less sold on the Astarte connection.

I'm bisexual myself, but I believe that gay bars are spaces sacred to Dionysus. Bars in general are Dionysian spaces with the consumption of alcohol, but throw in a safe space for same-sex attraction, frequent drag shows, and pulsing Lady Gaga music and it's a perfect fit. Does that answer your question?

In terms of awareness, I believe they hear prayers and receive acts of worship. Whether they actually need human worship or not, I believe it pleases them. As for communication, opinions and experiences vary widely within the NeoPagan world. I myself sometimes look for signs, but never get anything close to direct contact, visions, etc.

To be honest, it is interesting to read about this. Worshipping or at least believing in what most would call 'dead gods' or 'false gods'.

Personally I view the different gods (like the ones you havd mentioned) as one of the reasons why I don't believe in any God or gods.

Interesting, sure, but they are all essentially metaphors for the same reality substance.

[Beastro]

The bowing part is a big problem for me. I genuinely fail to see why I should have to.

Because he's more powerful than me? Because he made me? Because he can torment me if I don't? These sound like descriptors of someone that we in a free society have been raised to rally against tbh.

Sounds like you need more soul search with regard to the transcendent.

You have to ask yourself exactly what that free society is and what sort of freedom it entails. As I said, I've come to realize that if we're not dedicated towards being bound to something greater, like a deity, we tend to simple be bound to our own desires, which in ages past were often looked on as no different than deities. I've come to look on this as why idolatry is such a big issue with Abrahamic religions; it's better to get things cut and dried focusing on a deity that desires balance and moderation in life than to fall prey to others that will throw you into extremes and discard you as they see fit (which ties into the amoral, use and be used outlook of paganism).

For me, we have to come to terms with the fact that we're quite limited as being and we're limited despite our minds striving to push beyond those limitations. It creates a contradiction that breeds a lot of unnecessary frustration and anger. I know too well being a perfectionist what that's like.

Torment you if you don't? We all suffer in life. Some of it can be a result of our own making, even if much of it isn't. One has to then consider what the outcome of that suffering is. I know myself that I have suffered immensely in my life, but I also know I am better for it if only for the fact that I understand intimately what suffering is and can thus understand what others go through instead of being involuntarily callous.

My mom suffered from her teens with severe migraines, our neighbour when I was a kid said outright he didn't believe she had them, or at the very least, she was convincing herself that they were real when they weren't. Why? Because he'd never had a migraine, much less a headache, in his life, and so couldn't fathom what they were like. Barbara Bush had much the same experience towards the depressed until she got a bout out of.

There's also the dynamic of parents and children (and why it is constantly brought up in the Bible) and why we all know it's wrong to spoil children since it results in a bad end for the kid above all else. To do otherwise, though, results in walking a path that winds up with the child often hating the parent because it infringes on their wants and desires, but from that the child is then able to do so much more in life once they mature and better grasp things. Childhood is transient, and it's no surprise the Bible always speaks of how transient this life is in the same way. But such things come with trust. So many of us, though, have had our's damaged by what we've faced in life and how we've reacted to those violations of it. In my own way, I have as well.

The thing to consider, at least with Christianity, is the fact that while God allows suffering, God didn't stand aloof to it and actively participated it Himself through the Crucifixion and the three days until His Resurrection. You can depute all of that, but taking it on the face of it, you cannot say given what was ostensibly presented (The taking of all sin upon Himself) that the Christian God didn't show that He also had skin in the matter alongside of us.

*snip*

MK, I came across a quick 3 and a half minute video that goes into the area I'm trying to get to (I'm still wrapping my head around it myself given the impact of Protestant culture on our perception of the world.

The Experience of Symbolism Is Personal, but Not Subjective
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raa8z6u ... JT2kNRJFVA

That is Modernist Nihilism in a nutshell and I find what nicely sums up so many currents in modern culture. A good strain of the Alt-Right are like that who don't necessarily hold any position, they just want to attack those they feel are the current kings of the cultural hill.

[Beastro]

So let me answer your questions.

There's always been a degree of syncretism in religion. I think it's possible that some people know the gods I worship by another name, but I'm wary of over-universalizing. People like to draw a lot into their grand unified theory of mythology. For example, while I accept Aphrodite and Venus as basically the same deity, I'm less sold on the Astarte connection.

I'm bisexual myself, but I believe that gay bars are spaces sacred to Dionysus. Bars in general are Dionysian spaces with the consumption of alcohol, but throw in a safe space for same-sex attraction, frequent drag shows, and pulsing Lady Gaga music and it's a perfect fit. Does that answer your question?

In terms of awareness, I believe they hear prayers and receive acts of worship. Whether they actually need human worship or not, I believe it pleases them. As for communication, opinions and experiences vary widely within the NeoPagan world. I myself sometimes look for signs, but never get anything close to direct contact, visions, etc.

To be honest, it is interesting to read about this. Worshipping or at least believing in what most would call 'dead gods' or 'false gods'.

Personally I view the different gods (like the ones you havd mentioned) as one of the reasons why I don't believe in any God or gods.

Pagan gods are representative aspects of the world around us. In the same way one can look at all the constituent parts of a nation, you city's city hall, the flag waving outside of it, the police patrolling around, your neighbourhood , and yet you cannot see the nation itself. A nation is invisible to the eye, yet is exacts a very real impact on it. A hybrid version that spans both religion and nationalism is the old Saxon god Seaxneat, which represented the Saxons and their origins.

The issue therein is that these are simply other being in a wider world vying for power. The wars of nationalism in the past couple centuries could be looked upon as the battles of gods fighting it out among themselves, but the greater world all are within is effectively amoral and no different than the dynamic animals have with human beings and the greater power we have over them.

The Biblical scholar Yehezkel Kaufmann defined this outlook as the metadivine realm, and contrasted it with the Abrahamic one which has a very different relation between what can be considered deity and the world around us. From the Christian perspective, though ignored by many modern Christians, are the "Principalities and Powers" spoken of. The best example of that to look at is Tolkien's Legendarium and how Melkor and the Valar relate towards Eru Illuvatar which is derived from that very outlook.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Beastro, I take issue with your broad characterization of Paganism. Most Pagan religions are morally complex, not amoral. You mention a total lack of restraint and giving into desires, but the notions of restraint, moderation, and balance are essential to the ancient Greek religion.

[McAvoy]

So Pagan religion is a representation of for a lack of a better word, idols to the various human elements? Greed, love, etc?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Also probably compassion, rationality, temperament, restraint, altruism.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Many Pagan religions have some gods that are simply personified aspects of reality, like love, pain, death, etc. But even the religion most known for this also has deities that are more complex than that, with more personality and facets than just an embodied singular force. Don't make the mistake of attributing Christian ideas of divinity's place in relation to humans to Pagan polytheisms.

Look at Dionysus. He's "The god of Wine" but he's not JUST a personification of drunkenness. He's the god of the theater, of people acting, of wearing masks and behaving in a manner unlike yourself to tell a greater story. He's a god of ghosts and the underworld. He is a god of suffering, madness, and death, but also the freer from cares, the bringer of relief and freedom, the breaker of chains, the liberator of slaves. He is masculine virility and supple femininity. He's a lot of things, not one thing.

Thanatos is Death, the actual personification of Death, who takes you to the underworld when you die. Hades is a god OF death, but more specifically the god of the dead, ruler of the underworld, god of wealth, a figure wise, tender, and just.

[McAvoy]

Let me get this straight. Do you worship these gods as they are real and actively working for or against you? Or do you use them as a representation of the human condition?