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Yukaphile wrote: ↑Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:14 am
... yes, okay, you're right, I'm sorry, but... what do you expect during all the times I was coming and going and he kept pestering me for a debate? He didn't care that I was unhappy. All he cares about is "defending the honor," that is, the narrow-minded dogmatic interpretation he has for his pet franchise. And I'm still miffed he called me a DBZ downplayer and flat-out said he hates me for being one. Which I am NOT. Do you know what that means among debaters? He's implying I have an agenda to interpret their feats and showings and abilities on screen to claim they're weaker than they really are, in an effort to slur and degrade the series. When that is not true. I know. I've been like him. I know how he thinks. If he'd just leave me alone, I'd be happy. But he doesn't want to. Still, I did cross the line, and I apologize...
Again, if you want me to leave you alone, simply say the following:
'I admit I'm completely wrong, and MUI Goku solos Marvel and DC, just like you said'. Then stop posting.
But you're not going to do that, because no matter what you say, you care more about wanking comics and downplaying Dragonball than anything else.
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:46 am
Yuka, IIRC I had him pretty stumped with Xavier using Wolverine as a distraction.
No you didn't. I already proved that such telepathy would do nothing and Wolverine couldn't even get close. It would be like when Cell fought that armored student of Mr. Satan - he was pushed away just by his aura.
I don't get the inherent issue here? In the main canon of DB that's not including the spin-off games or non-canon movies, filler, or DBGT, the main canon being DBS, there is still only a finite number of universes and timelines. Let's highball it here.
We can consider the afterlife a separate universe, and that the Kaioshin realm constitutes its own universe, even though it's something like a pocket dimension. That's three universes. There were 18 universes at one time, since Grand Zeno destroyed six of those macrocosm bubbles. I don't doubt that Zeno could have destroyed it all if he'd felt like it, and survived it. 3 x 18 = 54. And to date we have so far seen five or six timelines, but let's highball that, as well. We will say there are at least two dozen other timelines, not counting games like Xenoverse, or anything like that. 54 x 24 = 1,296.
That would total the number of universes within the main-line canon DB world, with extreme highballing. Let's now blatantly mischaracterize Grand Zeno's stats, and say he could wipe out all 1,296 universes. True, there is nothing to suggest he can't, but it is implied to be far more likely that he can't since we see there are alternate versions of Grand Zeno. He is not totally resistant to causal forces, or he would stand mono-locked above every single timeline, or possess a consciousness spread among his alternate selves. Why would Future Zeno not wipe out every universe if he was that upset, or had such capabilities?
Okay, I've highballed Grand Zeno, the strongest character in DB at this time, whom not even Goku can beat.
That changes nothing. Worlds like DC, Marvel, have at one time possessed an infinite number of universes in their respective series. ST, with the Q standing as the dominant species, has on screen confirmed 285,000 separate universes which blows the abovementioned highballed number out of the water while also discounting the increasing timelines, mirror universe, antimatter universe, and other factors. Grand Zeno is obviously not an omnipotent being, so much as nigh-omnipotent or he wouldn't be locked into separate timelines the same as any other living being. And there is nothing to suggest that he has his consciousness spread out across his alternate selves like in Marvel, or that he has free range to influence the past, present, and future like the Q. The burden of proof is on you to provide feats that he can.
You gotta be able to see this. You could perhaps make the case that reality-warping wouldn't work on Goku since Vegito shrugged off Buu's candy beam easy and kept fighting as a jawbreaker. Fair enough. But the point I'm illustrating here is that given the range of these various characters such as the Living Tribunal, The Presence, the Q and more, who stand above an infinite number of universes at points in their history, they would logically possess greater power, or higher dimensional power.
The numbers don't lie. 285,000 is greater than 1,296, which was already in itself an extreme highball. DBS is one of the most powerful verses in fiction, but that 1% makes them seem like nothing.
Way to ignore that the World of Void was explicitly stated to be infinite, and Ultra Instinct Omen Goku and Jiren (not even at his full power) shook the whole thing just by powering up. They are far beyond infinite even when holding back their power.
Captain Crimson, don't worry about this one. We already settled this with Xavier besting Goku by sending all the mutants at him, including Wolverine who's key in the matter. No way Goku could deal.
SSJGodGoku wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 10:16 pm
Way to ignore that the World of Void was explicitly stated to be infinite, and Ultra Instinct Omen Goku and Jiren (not even at his full power) shook the whole thing just by powering up. They are far beyond infinite even when holding back their power.
Did I, really? How can it be infinite if there's no "space and time" by the character's own words? Space and time are connected, mainly due to binding gravitational forces of the universe. What I had always taken away from that is that the World of Void is like how the universe was once thought to be, static in terms of growth. At this rate, you could argue Goku stomps all of fiction mainly by OPM joke logic, that there is none, so just roll with this. Stuff happens. I could see that. But not when you're trying to nitpick over details. When you nitpick over details you begin to see how bleeding impossible this all is and is likely being made by people who have no working understanding of basic science, and so push the more "magical" type fantasy elements straight into your face. On that basis, Goku beats everything, okay then. Even though he's lost before.
Back to topic. I never actually said the World of Void was not infinite. That is blatantly putting words in my mouth. You're just retorting with an unspecified amount they are somehow "past" infinity. Well, okay, even with levels of infinity... nothing I said actually changes. You ever hear of something called subspace? In ST, it's described as an "infinite number of domains" with an infinite number of cells, and since their technology can influence it, going with this logic the Enterprise is 2-A. And the Q have been shown to manipulate subspace as well one, which is just one part of the universe, and there are many more. What is infinity x 285,000+?
"Far beyond infinite" is a buzzword. It means nothing. Prove how far they are past infinity. Can you even do that? Sure, we have multipliers for the older SSJ transformations, but we have none for SSJG, SSJB, and UI. So it's an utterly unknown quantity ATM. H! IIRC, one of the creators was asked whether Goku could blow up a universe, and he said no. Not going to him as a word of god, mind you. But that many of the creative forces involved with DBS had their own ideas on what to do and where to go. No different than DC or Marvel, or ST, or any other genre.
So if you go with infinite dimensional tiering, what changes here?
Captain Crimson, don't worry about this one. We already settled this with Xavier besting Goku by sending all the mutants at him, including Wolverine who's key in the matter. No way Goku could deal.
SSJGodGoku wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 10:16 pm
Way to ignore that the World of Void was explicitly stated to be infinite, and Ultra Instinct Omen Goku and Jiren (not even at his full power) shook the whole thing just by powering up. They are far beyond infinite even when holding back their power.
Did I, really? How can it be infinite if there's no "space and time" by the character's own words? Space and time are connected, mainly due to binding gravitational forces of the universe. What I had always taken away from that is that the World of Void is like how the universe was once thought to be, static in terms of growth. At this rate, you could argue Goku stomps all of fiction mainly by OPM joke logic, that there is none, so just roll with this. Stuff happens. I could see that. But not when you're trying to nitpick over details. When you nitpick over details you begin to see how bleeding impossible this all is and is likely being made by people who have no working understanding of basic science, and so push the more "magical" type fantasy elements straight into your face. On that basis, Goku beats everything, okay then. Even though he's lost before.
So in other words you are just ignoring all of the canon facts and evidence because you don't like them.
Back to topic. I never actually said the World of Void was not infinite. That is blatantly putting words in my mouth. You're just retorting with an unspecified amount they are somehow "past" infinity. Well, okay, even with levels of infinity... nothing I said actually changes. You ever hear of something called subspace? In ST, it's described as an "infinite number of domains" with an infinite number of cells, and since their technology can influence it, going with this logic the Enterprise is 2-A.
What is that even supposed to me? And show me the Enterprise making all of subspace shake at once or your analogy is useless.
And the Q have been shown to manipulate subspace as well one, which is just one part of the universe, and there are many more. What is infinity x 285,000+?
Again, show me Q or anyone in Star Trek affecting all of subspace at once.
"Far beyond infinite" is a buzzword. It means nothing. Prove how far they are past infinity. Can you even do that? Sure, we have multipliers for the older SSJ transformations, but we have none for SSJG, SSJB, and UI. So it's an utterly unknown quantity ATM. H! IIRC, one of the creators was asked whether Goku could blow up a universe, and he said no.
And the Q have been shown to manipulate subspace as well one, which is just one part of the universe, and there are many more. What is infinity x 285,000+?