Fascism is Heroarchy

[MithrandirOlorin]

Ironically of course, given Orion's admittance to being an anarchist, medieval feudalism is a very good example of what that would look like in reality and probably why he/she likes the idea so much. A group of people who have all of the power solely because they have more weapons, more men and the equivalent of a big castle, lording over literally everyone else. No police, no help, and a taxman who burns down your house if you don't give him half your stuff every month.

Like BridgeConsoleMasher alluded to a few posts back, there is this subset of people who have a ''freedom fantasy''. They look at the Wild West and the medieval times and they think, ''damn, how awesome would that have been? Just a gun/sword at my hip, a horse under my ass, a traditional woman by my side, and a star to gallop by. And no pesky government getting in my way.''

When in reality of course there is a reason why all of that ended and we tried to adopt something else. That's he elephant in the room to everyone who covets the past, isn't it? If it was so great, why didn't we try harder to keep it? Maybe because it wasn't great. Maybe it was crap and what we have now is better even if it isn't perfect.

BTW, going back to the theme of this thread, Robin Hood. Steals from the rich and gives to the poor. A man who A) wouldn't have needed to exist if the there weren't a ridiculous amount of oppressed poor people back then and B) a man who clearly isn't a fascist given his many fights with the Sheriff of Nottingham i.e. the establishment.

No I do not like Feudalism, the fact that I wrote OP should be proof I'm not a Neo-Feudalism, I only reject the Marxist claim that Capitalism is in every way better.

Anarchism means opposing all heirarchy, Feudalism lacking a modern conception of the State means little. Feudalism has it's roots in Platonism.

The Robin Hood myth has appropriated by Reactionaries plenty actually. In fact your very reference to the "Sherif of Nonntingham" contradict the notion that Feudalism had not State or Police.

[MithrandirOlorin]

France stopped being a fully-fledged feudal state somewhere during the 100 Years War. France under Louis XIV still had feudalist elements, but was primarily a mercantilististic nation-state under an absolutist monarch.

Which is the highest stage of Feudalism.

A State isn't a Capitalist State till the Capitalist Class is the ruling Class.

That's denying the existence of transient states. By that measure, France stopped being capitalist when Napoleon ascended to the throne or with Louis XVIII at latest. Germany didn't become capitalist until 1918 and the UK isn't capitalist to date. That this is nonsense, is evident.

Also, stating that Absolutism as the "highest stage of Feudalism" is utter nonsense, precisely because the feudal societal and economical structure is already on it's way out when the entire power of the state is concentrated in the hands of a single monarch. Feudalism is characterized by a decentralization of power. Yes, the monarch technically owns the land and through that everything else, but the monarch himself doesn't hold the actual power within the state, as the monarch relies on the military power and cooperation of his feudal subjects, who owe him fealty and loyalty due to his land-grants. To pretend otherwise is the same as saying, that the Holy Roman Empire (of German Nation) never was a true feudal state.

Absolutism was indeed never part of actual Medivel Feudalism, but it is still at it's core a development of Feudal Ideology because it still comes down to viewing The Kingdom as the Property of The King.

Absolutism is intrinsically based on the elimination of feudal (economic) structures.

People do in fact consider Russia still Feudalism right up to WW1, much of the discourse around why the Russian Revolution played out how it did revolved around the notion that Russia wasn't even Capitalist yet.

Feudalism was first coined about 1771 and no one then used it or what 600-1300 was actually like, they based on what France's Ancien Regime and assumed that's how France had always functioned. So if 600-1300 wasn't the same Economic System as 18th Century France it's the former that actually needs a new word.

[hammerofglass]

How clearspira describes anarchists is exactly how I would describe Libertarians. The American/Randian sort, anyway; the European style of libertarian is different and I'm not clear what separates it from anarchism.

[MithrandirOlorin]

How clearspira describes anarchists is exactly how I would describe Libertarians. The American/Randian sort, anyway; the European style of libertarian is different and I'm not clear what separates it from anarchism.

They're thinking of Anarcho-Capitalists, I'm an Anarcho-Communist. However all Revolutionary Leftist support an Armed Proletariat, only in America's weird political echochamber does being pro Gun Control ever count as Progressive.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

BTW, going back to the theme of this thread, Robin Hood. Steals from the rich and gives to the poor. A man who A) wouldn't have needed to exist if the there weren't a ridiculous amount of oppressed poor people back then and B) a man who clearly isn't a fascist given his many fights with the Sheriff of Nottingham i.e. the establishment.

Right. There is just a whole bunch of examples of heroism that utterly derail any Fascist vehicle of thought.

In the real world you don't have that much to draw on back in the Spartan days, but you sure had a bunch of military factions to showcase a clear patriot that was most notably sustaining the integrity of the greater region you live in.

[MithrandirOlorin]

BTW, going back to the theme of this thread, Robin Hood. Steals from the rich and gives to the poor. A man who A) wouldn't have needed to exist if the there weren't a ridiculous amount of oppressed poor people back then and B) a man who clearly isn't a fascist given his many fights with the Sheriff of Nottingham i.e. the establishment.

Right. There is just a whole bunch of examples of heroism that utterly derail any Fascist vehicle of thought.

In the real world you don't have that much to draw on back in the Spartan days, but you sure had a bunch of military factions to showcase a clear patriot that was most notably sustaining the integrity of the greater region you live in.

I made clear from the beginning this was not about claiming all Hero stories are Fascist.

Robin Hood specifically however is very easy as a Libertarian Hero, I've seen them do it many times already "Robin Hood robbed from the Tax Collectives and give it back to the Taxed".

Thing is the whole Giving to the Poor pretense wasn't even part of the original myth, that's like a 19th Century invention.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

BTW, going back to the theme of this thread, Robin Hood. Steals from the rich and gives to the poor. A man who A) wouldn't have needed to exist if the there weren't a ridiculous amount of oppressed poor people back then and B) a man who clearly isn't a fascist given his many fights with the Sheriff of Nottingham i.e. the establishment.

Right. There is just a whole bunch of examples of heroism that utterly derail any Fascist vehicle of thought.

In the real world you don't have that much to draw on back in the Spartan days, but you sure had a bunch of military factions to showcase a clear patriot that was most notably sustaining the integrity of the greater region you live in.

I made clear from the beginning this was not about claiming all Hero stories are Fascist.

Robin Hood specifically however is very easy as a Libertarian Hero, I've seen them do it many times already "Robin Hood robbed from the Tax Collectives and give it back to the Taxed".

Thing is the whole Giving to the Poor pretense wasn't even part of the original myth, that's like a 19th Century invention.

Yeah it's problematic true.

[Riedquat]

When in reality of course there is a reason why all of that ended and we tried to adopt something else. That's he elephant in the room to everyone who covets the past, isn't it?

No, not really. That's a common approach by those who try to defend the hopeless excuse of a world we've got now, to accuse those looking backwards of viewing it through rose-tinted spectacles when they're donig the same with the present.

There are ideas and aspects of the past that quite rightly appeal. Quite often that isn't so much an inaccurate view of the past so much as a selective one. And thus lamenting the upsides that have been lost is entirely fair enough. Putting forward some idealised fictional vision of the past as a goal to aim for is just as valid as putting forward some vision of the future, which is fundamentally fictional since it's not actually happened at all.

I see no problem with both cheering on having got rid of past crap and lamenting lost good at the same time (and IMO a veyr large chunk of "progress" in the last century has added sweet FA worth having - it's made some very good changes where it's got rid of stuff that should stay in the past, but added bugger all, and caused a lot of collateral damage in the process).

That all said, and more to the point of the thread, any form of hierarchy is inevitable. In all but the smallest, most basic, subsistence societies (which I doubt any of us would ideally like to live in) you'll end up with a small number of people working out what needs to be done and a lot actually doing it, simply because it only requires a small number of the former and a large of the latter.

[clearspira]

BTW, going back to the theme of this thread, Robin Hood. Steals from the rich and gives to the poor. A man who A) wouldn't have needed to exist if the there weren't a ridiculous amount of oppressed poor people back then and B) a man who clearly isn't a fascist given his many fights with the Sheriff of Nottingham i.e. the establishment.

Right. There is just a whole bunch of examples of heroism that utterly derail any Fascist vehicle of thought.

In the real world you don't have that much to draw on back in the Spartan days, but you sure had a bunch of military factions to showcase a clear patriot that was most notably sustaining the integrity of the greater region you live in.

I made clear from the beginning this was not about claiming all Hero stories are Fascist.

Robin Hood specifically however is very easy as a Libertarian Hero, I've seen them do it many times already "Robin Hood robbed from the Tax Collectives and give it back to the Taxed".

Thing is the whole Giving to the Poor pretense wasn't even part of the original myth, that's like a 19th Century invention.

A more correct description would be, ''giving the people back what was stolen from them - who happened to be poor as a result.''

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Also I have this feeling that Punisher draws a lot on the story of Job.