Dragon Ball Super Goku vs. Post-Crisis Superman

[Yukaphile]

Do you ever see him fire a ki blast just once? No. He's just naturally strong. But he's not a ki user.

Proof? Because otherwise this is just baseless speculation.

I'm not claiming Yajirobe is weak, and hell, giving him something to do to make it a team victory was easily one of the best things about the Saiyan Saga. Just that he's demonstrated no evidence that he can use ki, especially since in Dragon Ball, not everyone could. They could just be naturally strong without being versed in ki. Seriously.

This is why debating with DBZ die-hards is so irksome. I don't dislike the series (it's my favorite anime), and I'm happy DBS has given us some great feats, and I certainly think downplayers suck. But really, you're... you're doing precisely what the Saitama fanboys are guilty of. Hype is what you're relying on, not provable evidence. Just because Zeno hasn't shown an upper limit doesn't mean he doesn't have one, so we shouldn't assume he's limitless. This is where trying to gauge their powers come in. And his best, on-screen feat was wiping out the future multiverse. And yeah, he tanked the blast. Very good high-end feat. Problem is Toriyama and DBZ by nature is very light on details, he's not a scientist, just a goofball with a pen, and he is even more detached from that process than ever before. Again, I'd peg Zeno-sama at perhaps the same level of power of Mxy. I don't get why you rely on power scaling when it's all over the map for DBS, yet dimensional tiering is proving to be far more reliable these days. Yeah, his confirmed limit seems to be taking out 18 universes, and if we wanna be generous, we could say it's 36 or so if we include the afterlife. Problem is that the DBZ multiverse seems to run along the same space-time structure, progressing forward in the same time-length. Only in other timelines is that not so, and wouldn't you know, Zeno-sama is bound to timelines. Hence why calling him omnipotent is stupid since there are entities in DC and Marvel whose true forms surpass the multiverse and stand above all the timelines itself. Mxy, I think, has alternate versions of himself. So again, this is consistent to scale him to his power and peg him at low 5-D. And more than this, we've seen that Zeno-sama is NOT all-powerful because that would mean he would know everything. He does not. Zuno is the one who knows everything. Hell, all Zeno-sama does is wave his hand and destroy things. That doesn't strike me as omnipotent, just some really cool hax.

I'm not denying it's impressive as hell, don't get me wrong. And it finally did shatter the universe buster glass ceiling. Trouble here is that you wanna think it's casual. Well, how casual? Number never given even though they show clear exertion, but can then go on fighting. That's not casual, but it's not full power either. You're also ignoring that the Elder Kai himself said the shockwave would destroy even Beerus and Goku. So far the only one to show being able to tank above universe-level destruction is the Omni-King. This was very clearly stated within the text itself. Meanwhile, you got characters like Superboy-Prime who survived The Monarch exploding, and Pre-Crisis Superman tanks the Big Bang. I mean, come on. Episode 12 was great as hell, and I like to think of it as Toriyama's revenge against Death Battle, and it did push them to a level in fiction that's hard for the majority to reach, but... come on. Be realistic.

Proof?

Again, you think power scaling is so consistent in DBS? Trunks' asspulls, for example. Or Master Roshi dodging Jiren in the manga. The biggest problem here, as I've said, is that Toriyama is not as involved in the work as he was in the eighties and nineties, and he has no editors to help him refine his ideas and rein him in. So once that happened, the power scaling just flew out the window. I mean... Toriyama himself admits he wants to buck convention and subvert expectations, so I get the sense he really wanted to ditch power scaling, but... again, that didn't happen till the Buu Saga, when the success of DBZ meant they wanted to keep cashing in, so they gave him full control, and look how well that worked out? Ratings plummeted, and the series was canceled. Dimensional tiering at least puts a proper context to cosmic beings and reality warpers. Let me put it this way. Could Zeno-sama wave his hand and just send someone back 100,000,000 years? I really don't think he could, not the way it's presented within the text. Not even Whis could, and he's the most haxed character in DBZ besides Hit. The way it's presented within the text itself, Zeno-sama is just someone really strong who destroys. That's it. He has no special hax or technique that would let him contend with beings that warp reality across high-dimensional planes and can affect time and space across infinite scales and dating back millions of years or billions of years into the future. Again, he's bound to timelines! It's just fact, which are you conveniently ignoring.

Only in your headcanon. What defense would Goku have from someone like, say, Flash or Pre-Crisis Superman from going back in time and killing him as a baby? What defense does he have against the Infinity Gauntlet and the mastery over time it has? Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet could just retgone Goku and he has shown no ability to withstand techniques that erase you from history before you were ever even born. And don't give me that he tanked the Hakai! The Hakai, as presented, stops your motion through time and space. It doesn't erase you so that you never existed in the first place, which btw, is how powerful Darkseid's Omega Beams are at full power. And don't bring up Hit either. That's more haxed speedblitz techniques rather than actually surviving legit high-tier reality-warping time manipulation of the kind, say, Dialga has. You think Hit is something? Dialga is the true master of time that would make Hit look like a bug.

Okay, I'll concede here.

Again, I'll give this to you.

Okay, it's said Jiren is stronger than a God of Destruction. I get that. But how much stronger, again? You have no idea, do you? Again, no numbers are given. It wouldn't surprise me if it was only a little bit. And don't hold out hope that even if so, they'll retcon it so that Beerus is still stronger than Goku. DBS is full of retcons. Don't be surprised. And I still think he was never meant to be stronger than Beerus. We'll see after the movie. At this moment, though, I'll grant you that he looks stronger based on what they said, but that could change, and that you still have no idea how much stronger. Power scaling is useless because unlike in DBZ, no numbers are given in DBS! At all. At least we know what the Super Saiyan multipliers are.

Refer to the above, though again, that could change.

Whatever.

Assuming Toriyama doesn't forget, lol. Again, I'd love to see that. To the point MUI is like Mastered Super Saiyan. As it is for the Angels.

DC and Marvel have been around for decades and have had dozens of writers working on them. Also different eras and cultural shifts that changed the direction they went in. DBZ is being written by one creator and has only been around for two generations at best, most of which haven't seen that much change in cultural shifts for the modern era, so how is it so inconsistent? And don't give me that there's a team of writers for Toei the same way there is for DC. I do know something about the creative process. It seems as if the writers never speak to each other, leading to conflicting ideas that seem to contradict one another, and there is apparently no head writer working to guide things into a clear cohesive structure. Star Trek at least had Michael Piller come Season 3 TNG. Why doesn't DBS have something like that? It should. There's no reason it.

And again this points to inconsistent scaling problems, in that the bar keeps getting raised higher and higher for how strong Beerus is, that has no real thought behind it. In the heyday of DBZ, it had legitimate thought put to it. You could feel it. Frieza has new forms to unlock. Cell has new forms to unlock. There's more transformations to unlock. Or new techniques to master that will let you level up. Or you could fuse! Except Beerus has no transformations, he's just somehow always been this strong? Nowadays it's just a mishmash of differing creative ideas clashing, and of course, all of it is based around Toriyama's manuscripts. And even if Beerus is thousands of times stronger, so what? What does that prove? You can't put an actual number to his busting abilities because it's still theoretical and unknown. With this logic, you get stuff like CFC claiming how Beerus can destroy 2,000 universes, and... OMG, no. He's never shown the ability to blow up 2,000 universes, which would be something only Zeno-sama might, might be capable of, but even he has no feats to suggest that when there's 12 universes bound to timelines! I'm excited for the new feats in Dragon Ball too, don't get me wrong, but let's exercise a bit of common sense, okay? This is why I reject power scaling, except in very specific and controlled circumstances.

Because this is an inconsistent show. Beerus's bar keeps getting set higher and higher. It's similar to Trunks pulling the rage form out of his ass with no explanation and then just keep getting higher and higher. Don't expect consistency from DBS. Even the fans like me who love the new feats will admit it's nowhere near as consistent as DBZ was, even though that sometimes had retcons and its own inconsistencies, which again you can thank Toriyama's editors for helping to minimize.

It was what the franchise was based on... when Scouters were still around, and when there was a strong and tight central vision. That's absent these days. And this gels with what I said. Scaling in very specific and controlled circumstances. But when you go scaling nuts, well then, it points to some of the huge structural flaws with DBS, which is that everything goes, anything can happen at a whim, and you don't know what's going on or going to happen next. That's precisely what Toriyama wanted all these years that his editors wouldn't let him do. Very fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants improvisational the way Lucas is.

Well then all you're doing is illustrating the way the multiverse structure in DBZ fails to measure up to Marvel and DC, both of which have infinite timelines and side dimensions and pocket realms. But they are infinite spaces. The DBZ multiverse has only 12 universes per each timeline. And somehow Zeno-sama is bound to each timeline. That doesn't paint him as an omnipotent figure, does it? I won't lie, I was very disappointed when the future Zeno showed up because I had really wanted Zeno-sama to be chrono-locked, but it seems Toriyama will just never give us any good space-time feats on par with some Western or even fellow Eastern fictional franchises, like Haruhi Suzumiya.

In a very local fashion. Not across a whole universe's worth where they can send someone back billions of years to the dawn of time and be unaffected by the changes in the timeline. Seriously, the high tiers in DC and Marvel remind me of Q. Are you really going to argue that Zeno-sama beats Q? Really. Q has like infinitely better space-time and reality-warping feats than anything found in DBS. Just give it up. I like the new feats, but they don't solo fiction. There are franchises out there, like the Cthulhu Mythos, where the god tiers would drive even the Zenos insane. All of reality is Azathoth's dream. How do you fight something like that? You can't. You can't beat that.

For now. Just wait till the Broly movie comes out and a new strong guy appears.

[SSJGodGoku]

Do you ever see him fire a ki blast just once? No. He's just naturally strong. But he's not a ki user.

Absolute lie. He was stronger than Goku when he first appeared in Dragonball. That was after Goku had surpassed Roshi and Tenshinhan. Kami also said that everyone who trained with him in preparation for the Saiyans had surpassed him. His power level in the Saiyan Saga was 970. Power level is a measure of ki.

Proof? Because otherwise this is just baseless speculation.

It would be really useful if you actually quoted the parts of my post you're replying to because I have no idea what you're asking for proof of when you write it this way.

I'm not claiming Yajirobe is weak, and hell, giving him something to do to make it a team victory was easily one of the best things about the Saiyan Saga. Just that he's demonstrated no evidence that he can use ki, especially since in Dragon Ball, not everyone could. They could just be naturally strong without being versed in ki. Seriously.

That's fucking retarded. He had a PL of 970. PL is a measure of KI!

This is why debating with DBZ die-hards is so irksome. I don't dislike the series (it's my favorite anime), and I'm happy DBS has given us some great feats, and I certainly think downplayers suck. But really, you're... you're doing precisely what the Saitama fanboys are guilty of. Hype is what you're relying on, not provable evidence.

Same for you brah.

Just because Zeno hasn't shown an upper limit doesn't mean he doesn't have one, so we shouldn't assume he's limitless.

It was directly stated in canon that he is limitless. Until something contradicts that, it's a fact.

This is where trying to gauge their powers come in. And his best, on-screen feat was wiping out the future multiverse. And yeah, he tanked the blast. Very good high-end feat. Problem is Toriyama and DBZ by nature is very light on details, he's not a scientist, just a goofball with a pen, and he is even more detached from that process than ever before. Again, I'd peg Zeno-sama at perhaps the same level of power of Mxy.

Mxy lost to Zatanna, SBP, Gog, etc. An imp with the same power as him had a weapon that could only destroy 200 planets at a time and he considered that impressive.

I don't get why you rely on power scaling when it's all over the map for DBS, yet dimensional tiering is proving to be far more reliable these days.

Except it's not, at all. It's just arbitrary nonsense. Dimensions in fiction work so very differently from series to series.

Yeah, his confirmed limit seems to be taking out 18 universes, and if we wanna be generous, we could say it's 36 or so if we include the afterlife.

There is no limit, he could destroy any number of universes. It was stated he can destroy anything. He could destroy all of DC and Marvel if he felt like it just as easily as he destroyed the future multiverse.

Problem is that the DBZ multiverse seems to run along the same space-time structure, progressing forward in the same time-length. Only in other timelines is that not so, and wouldn't you know, Zeno-sama is bound to timelines. Hence why calling him omnipotent is stupid since there are entities in DC and Marvel whose true forms surpass the multiverse and stand above all the timelines itself.

I didn't call him omnipotent. But existing in multiple timelines won't help you beat him, just maybe get away.

Mxy, I think, has alternate versions of himself. So again, this is consistent to scale him to his power and peg him at low 5-D.

So because there are alternate versions of Zeno and alternate versions of Mxy, they are the same in power? That makes no fucking sense whatsoever. There are alternate versions of Mai and Yajirobe, so I guess they are just as strong as Mr. Mxy then.

And more than this, we've seen that Zeno-sama is NOT all-powerful because that would mean he would know everything. He does not. Zuno is the one who knows everything. Hell, all Zeno-sama does is wave his hand and destroy things. That doesn't strike me as omnipotent, just some really cool hax.

I never said he was, but his power is absolute in terms of what it does.

I'm not denying it's impressive as hell, don't get me wrong. And it finally did shatter the universe buster glass ceiling. Trouble here is that you wanna think it's casual. Well, how casual? Number never given even though they show clear exertion, but can then go on fighting.

Beerus was only showing 'clear exertion' because he was weakening himself to using a tiny fraction of his power. You might as well say that 1st form Freeza is weak because he struggled against 250,000 PL Vegeta before powering up. If Beerus had used his real power in that fight Goku would have been dead in an instant.

That's not casual, but it's not full power either. You're also ignoring that the Elder Kai himself said the shockwave would destroy even Beerus and Goku.

Goku maybe but not Beerus. Recall how he often fought Champa and threatened to destroy both the 6th and 7th universes from the side effects and they were not worried about themselves at all.

So far the only one to show being able to tank above universe-level destruction is the Omni-King. This was very clearly stated within the text itself.

You complain about downplaying but then say this. That's hilarious. Let me explain it to you simply:

SSJG Goku's punch = suppressed Beerus' punch = universe buster.

Both of them took dozens or more of such punches in the fight and kept fighting.

SSJB Goku's punch >>>>>> SSJG Goku's punch.

SSJB Kaio-ken x10 punch = 10 times stronger than base SSJB Goku's punch. Even if you deny that SSJB is any stronger than SSJG (which would be completely idiotic) that still makes SSJB KKx10 Goku''s punch at least 10x universe busting. Beerus wasn't threatened by that. In the manga Shin said that SSJB Vegeto might be equal to Beerus, but he wasn't sure. Not to mention that throughout the Universe 6 and Future Trunks sagas Goku and Vegeta were constantly getting stronger and one-upping each other in their SSJB forms, so that adds even more multipliers. SSJB Goku with Kaio-ken x20 should at least be able to destroy 1000 universes or more with a casual punch. Now just imagine how powerful UI and MUI Goku is.

Meanwhile, you got characters like Superboy-Prime who survived The Monarch exploding

Which as I already pointed out is a lot less impressive than a casual punch from SSJG Goku who is pathetically weak in comparison to current Goku.

and Pre-Crisis Superman tanks the Big Bang

You mean that one time he went back in time and nearly died? Yeah, he wasn't even exposed to the whole thing at once, so that's again much less impressive than a casual punch from SSJG Goku. In fact those punches created shockwaves that moved MFTL across the universe and even into the afterlife and had the power to wipe it all out if they weren't countered, so each of those punches is way more powerful than a Big Bang. In DC the equivalent would be if someone threw a punch that could have destroyed not only the entire universe, but all of Heaven and Hell too. Not even the Spectre or Anti-Monitor can do that.

I mean, come on. Episode 12 was great as hell, and I like to think of it as Toriyama's revenge against Death Battle, and it did push them to a level in fiction that's hard for the majority to reach, but... come on. Be realistic.

You are the one who is denying canon evidence.

Proof?

Proof of what? Quote what you're replying to or I won't know what you're talking about.

Again, you think power scaling is so consistent in DBS? Trunks' asspulls, for example. Or Master Roshi dodging Jiren in the manga.

It's a lot more consistent than DC where Batman beats Superman and Darkseid.

The biggest problem here, as I've said, is that Toriyama is not as involved in the work as he was in the eighties and nineties, and he has no editors to help him refine his ideas and rein him in. So once that happened, the power scaling just flew out the window. I mean... Toriyama himself admits he wants to buck convention and subvert expectations, so I get the sense he really wanted to ditch power scaling, but... again, that didn't happen till the Buu Saga, when the success of DBZ meant they wanted to keep cashing in, so they gave him full control, and look how well that worked out? Ratings plummeted, and the series was canceled.

So do you think Roshi is stronger than the Grand Priest since the latter never destroyed a moon?

Dimensional tiering at least puts a proper context to cosmic beings and reality warpers.

No, it's imaginary context. You're just assigning random numbers and claiming that they mean something. I might as well say that Goku is infinite-dimensional with just as much proof as you have.

Let me put it this way. Could Zeno-sama wave his hand and just send someone back 100,000,000 years? I really don't think he could, not the way it's presented within the text. Not even Whis could, and he's the most haxed character in DBZ besides Hit.

Why would he need to do that?

The way it's presented within the text itself, Zeno-sama is just someone really strong who destroys. That's it.

And that's all he needs.

He has no special hax or technique that would let him contend with beings that warp reality across high-dimensional planes and can affect time and space across infinite scales and dating back millions of years or billions of years into the future.

He erased Infinite Zamasu who merged with all time and space in the multiverse and was completely immortal.

Again, he's bound to timelines! It's just fact, which are you conveniently ignoring.

So what can you do if you are in another timeline? Run away? That's not a victory. Besides, timelines in most other series aren't multiversal like they are in DB. Zeno could easily wipe out all the timelines of a single universe in DC or Marvel.

Only in your headcanon. What defense would Goku have from someone like, say, Flash or Pre-Crisis Superman from going back in time and killing him as a baby?

Goku's power transcends time as seen with Hit. It was also stated that Jiren's power is beyond time itself. If someone tried that the future Goku would still exist because his power is greater than time itself.

What defense does he have against the Infinity Gauntlet and the mastery over time it has? Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet could just retgone Goku and he has shown no ability to withstand techniques that erase you from history before you were ever even born.

Again, characters on the level of him and Jiren are beyond time. This is canon.



No type of time manipulation will work.

And don't give me that he tanked the Hakai! The Hakai, as presented, stops your motion through time and space. It doesn't erase you so that you never existed in the first place, which btw, is how powerful Darkseid's Omega Beams are at full power.

No they're not. That's a myth. Those beams have been blocked by heat vision, Jay Garrick's hat, and a pile of ash. Anyone can tank them.

And don't bring up Hit either. That's more haxed speedblitz techniques rather than actually surviving legit high-tier reality-warping time manipulation of the kind, say, Dialga has. You think Hit is something? Dialga is the true master of time that would make Hit look like a bug.

Time is time. Goku was literally so powerful that he was able to move faster than stopped time itself. It was stated that time itself meant nothing to Jiren's power.

Okay, I'll concede here.

Again, I'll give this to you.

That's nice, except I don't know what you're conceding since you didn't quote it properly.

Okay, it's said Jiren is stronger than a God of Destruction. I get that. But how much stronger, again? You have no idea, do you? Again, no numbers are given. It wouldn't surprise me if it was only a little bit.

That still makes him stronger.

And don't hold out hope that even if so, they'll retcon it so that Beerus is still stronger than Goku. DBS is full of retcons. Don't be surprised.

What kind of argument is this? If I wanted to play your game I could just say they might retcon it so Zeno is omnipotent after all. Or they might retcon it that everyone in DC and Marvel has is weaker than Mr. Satan.

And I still think he was never meant to be stronger than Beerus. We'll see after the movie.

Broly is going to be way stronger than Beerus and even Jiren.

At this moment, though, I'll grant you that he looks stronger based on what they said, but that could change, and that you still have no idea how much stronger. Power scaling is useless because unlike in DBZ, no numbers are given in DBS! At all. At least we know what the Super Saiyan multipliers are.

Wrong, we have Kaio-ken. There is no clearer multiplier than that.

Refer to the above, though again, that could change.

Whatever.

I don't know what you're replying to here.

Assuming Toriyama doesn't forget, lol. Again, I'd love to see that. To the point MUI is like Mastered Super Saiyan. As it is for the Angels.

Again, no context for this reply.

DC and Marvel have been around for decades and have had dozens of writers working on them. Also different eras and cultural shifts that changed the direction they went in. DBZ is being written by one creator and has only been around for two generations at best, most of which haven't seen that much change in cultural shifts for the modern era, so how is it so inconsistent?

You do know that multiple writers work on the DBS anime and manga, right? BTW, Dragonball started in 1984. DC started in 1934. Marvel started in 1939. That means that DC is not even 2.5 times as old as DB, and Marvel is even younger. So the difference is not that much. But still Dragonball is far more consistent.

And don't give me that there's a team of writers for Toei the same way there is for DC. I do know something about the creative process. It seems as if the writers never speak to each other, leading to conflicting ideas that seem to contradict one another, and there is apparently no head writer working to guide things into a clear cohesive structure. Star Trek at least had Michael Piller come Season 3 TNG. Why doesn't DBS have something like that? It should. There's no reason it.

Don't be ridiculous. Of course they collaborate with each other, or else the episodes would have no coherent narrative from one to the next.

And again this points to inconsistent scaling problems, in that the bar keeps getting raised higher and higher for how strong Beerus is, that has no real thought behind it. In the heyday of DBZ, it had legitimate thought put to it. You could feel it. Frieza has new forms to unlock. Cell has new forms to unlock. There's more transformations to unlock. Or new techniques to master that will let you level up. Or you could fuse! Except Beerus has no transformations, he's just somehow always been this strong? Nowadays it's just a mishmash of differing creative ideas clashing, and of course, all of it is based around Toriyama's manuscripts.

Now you're just whining that you don't like the modern writing. Too bad, this isn't a debate over writing quality (but the DB franchise would still win that as long as stinkers like Countdown, Cry For Justice, and All Star Batman and Robin exist).

And even if Beerus is thousands of times stronger, so what? What does that prove? You can't put an actual number to his busting abilities because it's still theoretical and unknown. With this logic, you get stuff like CFC claiming how Beerus can destroy 2,000 universes, and... OMG, no. He's never shown the ability to blow up 2,000 universes, which would be something only Zeno-sama might, might be capable of, but even he has no feats to suggest that when there's 12 universes bound to timelines! I'm excited for the new feats in Dragon Ball too, don't get me wrong, but let's exercise a bit of common sense, okay? This is why I reject power scaling, except in very specific and controlled circumstances.

You try exercising common sense. UI Omen Goku and Jiren both shook the entire World of Void by powering up (and not even to their full powers!) The World of Void is infinite in size, so if anything, thousands of universes is low end. It should be infinite universes, and greater (and yes it is mathematically possible to be greater than infinite).

Because this is an inconsistent show. Beerus's bar keeps getting set higher and higher. It's similar to Trunks pulling the rage form out of his ass with no explanation and then just keep getting higher and higher. Don't expect consistency from DBS. Even the fans like me who love the new feats will admit it's nowhere near as consistent as DBZ was, even though that sometimes had retcons and its own inconsistencies, which again you can thank Toriyama's editors for helping to minimize.

Again, this isn't a quality of writing debate.

It was what the franchise was based on... when Scouters were still around, and when there was a strong and tight central vision.

You do know that Scouters didn't appear in the original story until years and years and many story arcs had passed, right?

That's absent these days. And this gels with what I said. Scaling in very specific and controlled circumstances. But when you go scaling nuts, well then, it points to some of the huge structural flaws with DBS, which is that everything goes, anything can happen at a whim, and you don't know what's going on or going to happen next. That's precisely what Toriyama wanted all these years that his editors wouldn't let him do. Very fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants improvisational the way Lucas is.

You can't just ignore powerscaling, or else you can say nonsense like (using only DBS examples this time) SSJG Goku is stronger than SSJB Goku.

Well then all you're doing is illustrating the way the multiverse structure in DBZ fails to measure up to Marvel and DC, both of which have infinite timelines and side dimensions and pocket realms. But they are infinite spaces. The DBZ multiverse has only 12 universes per each timeline.

Wrong. There were 18 originally, at least as far as Whis knows. No one knows how many more there might have been. Besides, it's shown in many DC and Marvel stories that all of those extra universes are meaningless because they all depend on the existence main universe (Earth Prime or 616). Wipe that out and the rest fall like a stack of dominoes.

And somehow Zeno-sama is bound to each timeline. That doesn't paint him as an omnipotent figure, does it? I won't lie, I was very disappointed when the future Zeno showed up because I had really wanted Zeno-sama to be chrono-locked, but it seems Toriyama will just never give us any good space-time feats on par with some Western or even fellow Eastern fictional franchises, like Haruhi Suzumiya.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. That's the most ridiculous thing you've said yet. Haruhi is a normal human who takes hours to destroy a single universe subconsciously. In an actual fight, she'd lose to Bulma.

In a very local fashion. Not across a whole universe's worth where they can send someone back billions of years to the dawn of time and be unaffected by the changes in the timeline. Seriously, the high tiers in DC and Marvel remind me of Q. Are you really going to argue that Zeno-sama beats Q?

Um, easily. The entire Q race going to war using their full power only created a few supernovae in one quadrant of the galaxy. Zeno could just erase the Q Continuum.

Really. Q has like infinitely better space-time and reality-warping feats than anything found in DBS.

Like what? Tricking Picard into using his own ship to create a convoluted chain reaction that would eventually only sterilized one part of a single galaxy?

Just give it up. I like the new feats, but they don't solo fiction. There are franchises out there, like the Cthulhu Mythos, where the god tiers would drive even the Zenos insane.

Zeno is already insane.

All of reality is Azathoth's dream. How do you fight something like that? You can't. You can't beat that.

All of reality in his verse, not all of reality in other verses. Besides there are stories like some creepypastas where dreams can come to life and kill the dreamer.

For now. Just wait till the Broly movie comes out and a new strong guy appears.

So that means you agree I'm right until then?

[SSJGodGoku]

BTW, here is proof Zeno is not limited to a single timeline.



When Infinite Zamasu fused with the multiverse of the future timeline his essence was spreading to the current timeline as well. He appeared directly to everyone in the past. But Zeno still erased him.

[Yukaphile]

Then why does he never fire a single ki blast even against Vegeta?

Then never mind.

Refer to my first point.

How am I relying on "hype" to argue? You're literally ignoring some of my points. Try addressing those.

Then why is he stuck to timelines? You're butchering the word "limitless" here to treat him as if he's omnipotent, all-powerful, when the fact he's bound to space-time proves he can only wipe out the multiverse he is in. That's all. Not even a cluster of multiverses. That's a thing in Marvel, you know. The Living Tribunal stands above all the multiverses and clusters of them. Stop using talking points and start thinking.

You really are defaulting into the typical Saitama fanboy arguments. Because Zeno was never shown to be beaten on screen, you think he can't be. With that logic, do you concede that The Presence and TOAA could beat him? They were never shown to be defeated either, and are treated as their multiverse's one true omnipotent. Azathoth, with this logic, applies too. Hell, with this logic, Squirrel Girl should be able to beat the two Zenos. She's never lost. She's just a funny gag character who beats everyone with squirrels. Bugs Bunny. Freaking Bugs Bunny has never lost, as far as I know. Even took control of his own story. With that logic, he can't be beaten either, as with many Toon Force characters. Again, refer to what a no-limits fallacy is. Just because this character has never been beaten on screen, we will assume he can never be, even if another character has the necessary feats to do so! And losing to those characters is not a mark of weakness on them either. I suppose soon you're going to bring up how the Living Tribunal was taken out by someone from Captain America's weight tier? Problem here is that again, Zeno-sama is stuck to timelines, while the Living Tribunal is not, so even if you want to argue higher dimensions is bullshit, that alone proves he's still stronger. All you're doing is focusing on narrative and plot rather than feats like the typical Saitama fanboys do.

In my mind, I see dimensional tiering as either local or far-ranging. That's how I interpret it. Kuwabara slicing through Itsuki's Dark Soul counts as such a feat, especially since it's implied to be literally infinite on the inside - a demonic sentient TARDIS. What do you make of that? Does that mean Kuwabara is infinite?

He can destroy anything within his own verse. And his own verse is very small. How does that stuck up outside the DBZ realm? That's why I keep bringing up how the Marvel and DC high tiers that exist outside time and space and stand above the infinite timelines are stronger with this logic, but all you default into is "they lost, that means they're not truly as powerful as you think!" The same mindset Saitama fanboys had when they insist that Arale losing to Beerus proves she is not a real gag character and thus Saitama can still beat her, and Beerus, and anyone else in DBS and beyond. You are aware Roshi is now going toe-to-toe with Jiren, right? That's just as much bullshit. So don't play that "weaker character beat stronger character!" card. Though I'm curious on what your thoughts would be for Saitama vs. Zeno-sama, just one, considering how hard you hit Zeno-sama with an NLF.

You're the one calling him limitless. If he's bound to timelines, that indicates a limit to his power, otherwise he should be like the Living Tribunal or the Q and just stand above space-time itself. He does not.

Yajirobe and Mai are normal humans not being built up as limitless cosmic reality warpers like you think Zeno-sama is. That's why I think Zeno-sama is low 5-D. Because he has limits to his power, as I detailed! You said "there is no limit." But that he is bound to timelines and can only destroy what is within his own multiverse in the physical space-time he is occupying, including everything within but himself, and nothing outside of that, debunks your claims. I'll change it to "far-ranging low 5-D" if that pleases you?

Then why is he bound to space-time? Shouldn't his power over that be absolute too? When he waves his hand, shouldn't he wipe out all infinite timelines everywhere? Instead of those within his own singular space-time multiverse? You contradict yourself in that his power is absolute, but there's another version of him out there, so... yeah. That right there nullifies your whole argument because absolute power is absolute power, ie omnipotence, and nothing can come close.

You... are literally using the same arguments Superman fans do. That he was deliberately putting mental blocks on himself... what I see in that fight was someone who was fighting, if not at full power, at least with a good and strong concerted effort of seriousness and strength. It's just... this is why scaling gets impossible after Episode 12 and as much as I love the new feats, I wish Toei would clarify on this. Hell, when a fan asked one of the writers if Goku could blow up the universe, they said he couldn't do that because he's a hero. SethTheProgrammer covered this. So... yeah. I do sometimes have to wonder if it is an outlier because those working behind the series then seemed indifferent to it afterwards, barring cosmic entities like Beerus, the other Gods of Destruction, Angels, and of course the Grand Priest and the Omni-Kings. Time will tell, I suppose. Toriyama really does love to subvert expectations, it's practically trollish to him, so I could see him then going back on how "They're universe busters but okay, not really, was just yanking your chain, bro, bwahahahaha, you should've seen the look on your face!"

It's what the Elder Kai said. And I'd argue less they were worried and more just so enraged at one another they weren't thinking about anything but settling the score, hence why Vados and Whis stopped them - to do so would destroy both worlds, including themselves. The interpretation is there.

UGH... and this is why I reject power scaling after the Cell Saga. I don't even consider Blue Kaioken a multiplier so much as just a new transformation now, with less power and more specialized abilities. That would explain how Goku seemingly never approaches Beerus's power even though logically he should have done so by Episode 50. The whole point of DBZ is not even about geeking out over nerd science, it's about fun. And pretty explosions and cool transformations. That's what DBZ is. Let me adapt a TFS quote here. "Power scaling is bullshit!" The creators don't give a shit about that anymore, and neither should you. All it does is create more headaches, but hey, it does help you feel as if your pet franchise still beats every others, so that's something. And then you deny you rely on hype to argue?

Goku has never shown the ability to survive the universe exploding, and neither has Beerus, and so far the only one who has is the Omni-King. Plain and simple. DBZ is basically full of glass cannons.

Yeah, clearly no relying on hype here! Just hyping up how Episode 12 pretty much means Beerus could solo anyone in DC and Marvel. It affected one universe. ONE. Singular. If we count the afterlife, that's two universes. With the Kaioshin Realm as a pocket dimension. No, this is not equivalent. When Darkseid cracked the multiverse, it was affecting the space-time structure, and if he had, say, destroyed the whole multiverse, it would have affected an infinite number of other universes. Which is like infinitely more than anything found in Episode 12! How do you not know DC and Marvel are a multiverse full of infinite parallel universes? There are no infinite parallel universes in the DBZ multiverse. Just 12 universes, in the same space-time structure, and four other timelines. That's it. Anti-Monitor, meanwhile? Was, in fact, about to destroy an infinite number of timelines. Cut out the downplay and wanking, bro. You're making DBZ fans look bad.

No, I'm just countering your lowballing of comics and highballing of DBZ.

Then never mind.

No. If you seriously think Roshi dodging Jiren is somehow more consistent than Batman beating Darkseid or Superman, then you're just biased in favor of DBZ because it's your pet franchise, and while it's my favorite anime, I do love DC and Marvel too. It just seems as if you hate it, though. I mean, look at your username. Batman is carrying Kryptonite, so of course he can beat Superman at times. And then there are other times like in Justice League: War where Superman is rightfully dominating Batman. It really depends on those two. As for Darkseid, Batman has the Hellbat, which is armor that can specifically take hits from Darkseid and let him contend with those players. You'd have been better off pointing out how Batman kicked The Spectre, and that's just as bad as Roshi dodging Jiren. I don't see the difference because I love both DC and DBZ. And Marvel. LOL.

Of course not. As I said, I scale in carefully controlled and specific conditions. And as I explained above, I don't see the new forms so much as multipliers as transformations with specialized abilities, since again, DBS seems to be focusing more on feats than scaling, which is what Toriyama wanted all along. And even ignoring that context, we could still assume, even without all this, that Grand Priest, being a cosmic entity, could bust a moon. Just Saiyan.

And you're somehow more consistent? Your power scaling is making them so broken that they should destroy the very tiny DBZ multiverse just by existing.

Because it's an indication of power. As you said, Zeno-sama has "no limit." If he has no limit, why can't he send someone back 100,000,000 years in time, or send them to some kind of pocket dimension? A lot of cosmic beings in DC, Marvel, Star Trek, and other franchises do just that, but not in DBS. Hell, even Pokemon got a better example of this with their pantheon in that Dialga sent them back 12,000 years. If Zeno-sama can't do that, then it again points to the fact he has limits, and that would mean Dialga > Zeno-sama. LOL. Can't you see that?

That's not all he needs when you're arguing he literally has no limits and yet the text itself proves he does, and there are omnipotents and cosmic beings and reality warpers out there with far superior feats. You need to prove more than "weak character beat stronger character, invalidates strong character!" because again, there's the fact that would mean Roshi's BS invalidates Jiren.

First off, Infinite Zamasu? That's just a title. Don't default into the naming fallacy, otherwise Vegeta's Big Bang Attack literally makes him universal in the Cell Saga. Secondly, Zamasu was mostly definitely spreading through the universe, but had he spread to the rest of the future multiverse? My impression was that he was still in the process of doing so and would have spread to other timelines, over time, if he hadn't been stopped, and Zeno-sama just felt as if "there's no kill like overkill." There's also no indication he was capable of affecting timelines because again, he's stuck to them, and my interpretation of him wiping out Infinite Zamasu is that he dammed the spread of the flood before it could spread any further. There is otherwise no evidence that Zeno-sama could affect other timelines, otherwise he wouldn't be bound to them, and he would have just destroyed ALL of the DBZ multiverses. All 12 universes in all five timelines. He did not. That, again, proves he has limits.

I'd say the multiverse structure of DC and Marvel and Star Trek is more well thought out than that in DBZ. DC and Marvel and Star Trek are about a singular universe, with infinite timelines in it, and other side dimensions and pocket realms and spaces in between that could constitute infinite realms in their own right, all as part of the larger universal makeup. At least, I think. Not that up to date with DC and Marvel, but I know Star Trek. Point here being is that there is NO INFINITE in DBZ at all. None. Five timelines with 12 universes each. If you wanna highabll this to the absolute maximum, that would still be 60 universes, and remember there were once 18 universes, so that would mean there were once 90 universes, but if we were to be completely charitable and add the afterlife to each universe, that would make it a whopping 180 universes total. And if Zeno-sama can destroy ALL those universes... that's still not infinite. That's 180 universes. But oh wait, it gets even better! There are only five timelines because of Bulma's time-travel shenanigans during the Cell Saga. So... you citing how so and so cosmic being or reality warper was beaten by someone weaker? That gets thrown out the window when you realize here that the DBZ pantheon, the top gods of the whole multiverse, which includes Zeno-sama himself, were undone by a time machine. A mortal invention. A simple fucking machine split the multiverse into five timelines. Wow, that's just... yeah. Kinda makes Superboy-Prime beating Mxy look moot, huh? And that again points to a limit Zeno-sama has, in that the time traveling split the multiverse four times over, and that included him. So don't go on about how he "has no limits." He very clearly has them.

OH PLEASE. Surviving time-skip hax is not equal to being acausal. At all. Which you know, other characters in fiction are. Q is acausal. Hell, Goku Black is more likely to fit the definition of acausal than Goku is, because with the Time Ring, it protects him from changes in the timeline. Without that, no, Goku would definitely be erased from history. Seriously. Knock off the wanking. I like Hit too. He's easily one of the coolest things to come out of DBS since Beerus and Battle of Gods, but... COME ON. It especially ignores one important context, in that Whis was very explicit in how jumps to the future and so on are fine, but going into the past is not done and risky. That's a clear limitation, and Goku has shown no natural defense against this. Hell, the Omni-King has no natural defense against this! Hit isn't going back in time so much as leaping forward in time through some kind of magical wizardry hax, or freezing someone in time, or slowing down their temporal movements. Even Whis can only rewind time by three minutes, and from what we've seen, Vegeta, on par with Goku, was subjected to the changes in the rewinding timeline, so... yeah. Without the Time Ring, Goku has no protection from timeline changes. AT ALL. None. And he never will because that's a Kaioshin object. Not for mortals.

Refer to the above. What Supreme Kai said is very clear hyperbole and exaggeration for sake of drama. It's what fiction does all the time. Not even DC and Marvel are immune, so don't think I'm trashing DBZ for this.

Proof? Cite your sources as to how the Omega Beams are really that weak. Do you have scans?

And water is water. But if you formed a bubble that briefly shielded you from the water you're in, does that count as the same thing? Don't default into the "faster than time" argument. Goku is not going to be traveling through time because of his speed, as much as I wish he would. Besides, there's a legitimate debate on whether or not that's an actual jump through a brief segment of time or on if it's more "powering up = protection from hax." I really have no view on either of these. I don't know which one holds more water for me, so I just keep debating and hope maybe someday I'll come to a conclusion. I do know Hit's Time-Skip powers have limits. For you to pretend he's somehow comparable to the great time masters of fiction... really reveals a startling amount of ignorance on your part.

Whatever.

It's one that is consistent with the idea that Beerus and Whis are some of the most new marketable things to come out of Dragon Ball in decades, and it is possible Toei will panic and not want them to be relegated to side character status. The second they do, Goku's heading on to other adventures in the hyperverse, as I said. And true, it's very possible Zeno-sama might never be surpassed either. But as it stands now the way he's written is presented with very clear rules and limits within the text and the narrative, meaning he is hardly limitless. And no. There will be no retcons so everyone in DC and Marvel including cosmic beings is somehow like a Street Fighter character. That has no logic at all. My feeling does. But time will tell after the movie comes out.

Bwahahahahaha. We'll see, again. I'm not impressed with the trailers so far, but I do hope Broly at least blows up a galaxy on screen to put that argument to bed, like they did with the myth about four galaxies. That is something I deeply love about DBS, that it's being used to shut up hater arguments the lowballers and downplayers have been using for years.

Here's a way to tell the power scaling in DBS fails. TheSaiyan17 doing a much better job than I ever could.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k__4rvC1KRE

Back in the Namek Saga, the Kaioken x 10 and x 20 multiplier was written with clear intelligence in mind, and what Frieza's percentage of power was. There is no thought like that put into DBZ anymore. We get x 10 and x 20 Kaioken now, and... so what? We don't know the multipliers for the god forms, or for Ultra Instinct, and I doubt we ever will! The Daizenshuu and other works were the ones to run with the idea of expanding on power levels. But again, that was back at a time when Toriyama's editors were still telling him what to do, so the scaling was more consistent. It hasn't been consistent since the Buu Saga, so I seriously doubt that there's going to be expanded material to cover this new stuff.

Then never mind.

And they aren't talking to one another! Trek proved you need a head guy or a girl in charge to guide the direction the episodes are going in, and there's none of that in DBS. Also, multiple writers for the manga, wha? Dude, there's only Toyotaro, nothing else! Maybe Toriyama helps him out with ideas a few times. That's it. I'm also telling you the cultural shifts between the late thirties to the late seventies were... yuuuuuuuuuge. And DC and Marvel always have something of a tie to the real world, like Star Trek does, a certain level of fidelity to that, so those cultural shifts are going to factor into the story, especially with new regulations put in place on what writers can and can't do, or what is at least seen as culturally appropriate compared to, say, fifty years ago. That hasn't changed substantially since the late eighties. At least no more than increasingly hyperpolarized radicalization from left and right.

They don't have a cohesive narrative from one episode to the next! Check out some of MassakoX's videos to get an idea what I mean.

I wasn't even talking about the writing so much as power scaling! As I said, Frieza and Cell had transformations, there were absorptions, and fusions that could level the difference. It makes no sense Beerus is somehow always this stronger as that bar keeps getting set unrealistically higher and higher until, as you've said before, people like you think he's suddenly capable of destroying thousands of universes just to keep up with inconsistent scaling. But for the record, yeah, I don't tune into DBS for the story. That's been shit since the Cell Saga ended and Toriyama was given full control. I just wanna see what crazy feats they have next that will finally put the Goku vs. Superman debate to bed. As I said earlier, I see it was Episode 12: Toriyama's Revenge! On Death Battle.

World of Void would only count as an infinite realm within a set space. Like the TARDIS. That's why I adhere to dimensional tiering. DC and Marvel and even Trek also have those. Infinite pocket dimensions within even larger universes and so on. It's also frankly hard to quantify the same way that you can't quantify Superman "lifting" the Book of Infinite Pages, so-called, so I just go with what Seth said and agree it's a peak 4-D feat. Besides, you really wanna go there? Superman broke infinity with his speed. We constantly get the infinity symbol throughout DC and Marvel. Superboy once beat Infinite Man. What does that tell you? Don't default into hyperbole and no-limits fallacies.

Trunks suddenly boosting up to the level of god tiers is about power scaling, though DBZ at its peak was such that the writing and power scaling went hand-in-hand. That's lopsided now, and it shows. Same for Android 17 suddenly leaping to god tier. Or Frieza training for four months and surpassing the universe buster glass ceiling. Hell, I have my own theory, not one I'm sure I believe, but could be true, that only the gods are capable of universe busting and beyond. This would include Goku and Vegeta, but nothing past them. So it's not really power scaling, it's magic!

And Toriyama still had very good editors telling him what to do long before Z began, so yeah, I stand by my statement that power scaling and writing with a clear central vision was more consistent till the Cell Saga ended.

Is your solution any better? You're literally calling Beerus and Goku infinite, in the true sense of the word, like past 32-D, Tier 0, because of one feat that the writers may have forgotten about or discarded. It also might be they hit universe-busting in terms of physical power, and that's the peak. The rest is through hax, like look at how Zeno-sama destroys a universe, with the Hakai technique. Not even physically blasts them. Again, all this is possible. I just find it ludicrous to suddenly say Beerus is a thousands of times universe buster over... simply for scaling that hasn't mattered since the Cell Saga now that Toriyama has complete control and is at the same time completely detached from the process and that the dude likes to subvert expectations. Doesn't that tell you something? It means he really doesn't care about power levels. You can thank his editors for how tightly consistent it was from the start of Dragon Ball all the way to the end of the Cell Saga.

And Whis never gives any indication there were more. 18 is the limit. Only in your headcanon do you think there was an "infinite" amount that Omni-King then blew up. And... I'll counter your claim, Earth being the center of DC and Marvel, with something I stated above, primarily that if the Omni-King, the supposedly highest and most infinite omnipotent authority in the cosmos, is undone by a human time machine... then what does that say about his power and the multiverse structure? Hell, who even created the DBZ multiverse? No one knows! And it's that lack of concrete information that really undersells the multiverse in DBZ. And yeah, tbh, I much prefer multiverse structures like those in DC, Marvel, and Trek than the ones found in DBZ. Hell, I think many other Japanese anime and manga do a better job than Super has done. I was disappointed from the start there weren't an infinite number of universes in DBS, and then when I learned there's alternate versions of the Omni-King, and I am now.

Now I'm really curious to hear if you think all the alternate versions of Zeno-sama combined > Azathoth plus TOAA plus The Presence plus The Ellimist plus... everything in fiction, just... wow.

Really? You're citing Voyager, urgh... but regardless, the supernova were the extension of their war. A byproduct, but not the whole effect. They were just convenient gates to get to the Q realm. That's all. Their realm exists in a place beyond our comprehension. I don't see Zeno-sama as being within that same realm. Again, the Q stand above the concept of timelines. Zeno-sama does not.

Let me list it for you.

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Q_(Star_Trek)

Check. And mate.

How? How do you even come to the argument that Zeno-sama is insane? I just... are you deliberately trolling now? Just be honest than and say this is your headcanon and fanfiction and that you think he has built-in immune systems and defense to anything within fiction. Anything. Just... OMG... people like you give the DBZ fandom a bad name. No tolerance for other fandoms whatsoever...

You can't default into the "his verse, his rules, don't work outside that!" while denying that to Zeno-sama because DBZ is your pet franchise. You have to be fair to other fandoms and other franchises too, otherwise you're just being a biased and bigoted ass. Though it would be cool to see something kill Azathoth, I gotta admit.

No. Just biding my time to see.

That was the portal Goku Black used to travel back in time through. So no, it means nothing.

[SSJGodGoku]

Learn to quote properly please, then I'll reply to your post. Right now you are just posting random points and I don't know what you're trying to address with each of them.

[Yukaphile]

Then it just looks as if you can't sustain an argument anymore, so you're leaving. Goodbye. Bullshit excuse and you know it. You were answering just fine when I wasn't doing that before. So don't give me that now.

[SSJGodGoku]

All you're doing is posting repetitive paragraphs where I have no idea what paragraph is supposed to be in reply to what. How do you expect me to know what you're talking about if you just randomly say things like:

- Give me proof

- Nevermind

- Refer to my first point

Without specifying what part of my argument you are replying to?

Is it really so hard to use quote tags? I quoted all of your posts point-by-point. You are refusing to do this simple thing to make your posts comprehensible.

Just type [ quote ] and [ / quote ] (remove the spaces) after the parts you are quoting. It is not that hard. Your refusal to do this makes me think it's you who can't argue.

[SSJGodGoku]

I was only able to answer before because the responses weren't that long. In the last one you'll note I mentioned a lot of times that I had no idea what you were referring to because you were unable to quote me properly. When your responses get this long it becomes pretty much impossible to figure out exactly what parts of my posts you are responding to if you don't quote them. It's not rocket science.

[SSJGodGoku]

You're still posting in the forums, why don't you reply? Just rework your last reply to include quotes. It's not hard. Otherwise I take it as your concession.

[Yukaphile]

Very well then. I'll start adding quotes, but you still need to address my points. It will take longer, though. So go ahead.