Fascism is Heroarchy

[CharlesPhipps]

You know what's interesting about Starship Troopers? It presents us with a world without sexism or racism among the humans. The men and women shower and bunk together without any suggestion of sexual harassment, men and women fight side by side in the army without being treated differently, black and white fight side by side again without remark, veterans with artificial limbs are holding down decent jobs. The kids are educated and healthy, medical technology is advanced, art is flourishing, and the civilians are clearly enjoying their lives.

This is an incredibly enlightened place compared to pretty much every real fascist dictatorship throughout history. I can see why some people accuse this film of glorifying fascism because this place is actually working out really well.

TL;DR, If this is an allegory for 1990s America, it's a pretty crap one. Especially as Paul Verhoeven did so well satirising 1980s America with Robocop just a few years prior.

Verhoeven is like Martin Scorsese in that he believes (perhaps incorrectly) his audiences are smart enough to not be told what's wrong with a situation. It's what so many Youtubers say when they ask, "Please don't shove the message down our throats." Which is, of course, that all of those racially integrated and equal gendered teens are going to be horribly murdered (and are) by a system that uses them as cannon fodder.

Sadly, a lot of people did miss the joke.

[MithrandirOlorin]

Got into a conversation regarding Spider-Man's odd relationship with the police, particularly in PS4's Spider-Man.

Superheroes are inevitably in a weird place regarding policing because they are fundamentally anti-fascist (which a lot of academics refuse to acknowledge because, having worked as one in Literature—a lot of them are snobbish assholes) because they are created as a response to the failures of the policing system from the Great Depression. Adolf Hitler and Goebbels even designated them "Jewish Media" and against the values of the Third Reich — which is a ringing endorsement if I ever heard one.

However, the assumption by Spider-Man is that he is trying to carry water for the system not overthrow it like the X-men who are far more political. It's ironic because Sixties Stan Lee and Dikto weren't unaware of the failures of the police or media. There's a reason Jonah Jameson attacks Spider-Man and there's huge numbers of corruption stories in their run.

Why? Because they were New Yorkers when the NYPD was at its most useless/corrupt.

Nazis at that time felt the need to condemn American Comic Book Superheroes because they were being used in War Time Propaganda, and because many of their creators were Jewish. None of that makes anything Anti-Fascist.

Viewing the Police a Failure can be Fascist depending what you think they are failing to do. Death Wish movies and The Punisher appeal to people who think the Police aren't harsh enough. They appeal to the kind of people who watch Death Note and refuse to see Light as the villain.

[TGLS]

I think the main flaw with your argument is that you're equivocating between the common definition of hero and Carlyle's private definition of hero. And honestly, his definition of "the ablest man" is so broad that making comparisons to media is useless. Like it covers Dr. Doom, Tony Stark, Khan Noonien Singh, Spock, King Arthur, John Galt and many others. For every most able protagonist, I'm pretty sure you can find a most able antagonist to counter that.

[MithrandirOlorin]

I think the main flaw with your argument is that you're equivocating between the common definition of hero and Carlyle's private definition of hero. And honestly, his definition of "the ablest man" is so broad that making comparisons to media is useless. Like it covers Dr. Doom, Tony Stark, Khan Noonien Singh, Spock, King Arthur, John Galt and many others. For every most able protagonist, I'm pretty sure you can find a most able antagonist to counter that.

The Issue isn't the existence of a Hero but whether or not the narrative is arguing those Heroes should be in charge.

[CharlesPhipps]

Nazis at that time felt the need to condemn American Comic Book Superheroes because they were being used in War Time Propaganda, and because many of their creators were Jewish. None of that makes anything Anti-Fascist.

No, Superman being a socialist hero about fighting warmongering, spouse abuse, and social injustices do, though. I am curious what the bare minimum for being anti-fascist in your criteria, though, is. What is does an anti-fascist work and hero look like?

The Issue isn't the existence of a Hero but whether or not the narrative is arguing those Heroes should be in charge.

You'll have to define "in charge" too because few comics advocate for herocracy. If it's that, "heroes do things the public doesn't order them to" that is a tautology since, "the public rallies around heroes and are fascist" is as bad as "the public is defied by the hero."

[MithrandirOlorin]

Nazis at that time felt the need to condemn American Comic Book Superheroes because they were being used in War Time Propaganda, and because many of their creators were Jewish. None of that makes anything Anti-Fascist.

No, Superman being a socialist hero about fighting warmongering, spouse abuse, and social injustices do, though. I am curious what the bare minimum for being anti-fascist in your criteria, though, is. What is does an anti-fascist work and hero look like?

The Issue isn't the existence of a Hero but whether or not the narrative is arguing those Heroes should be in charge.

You'll have to define "in charge" too because few comics advocate for herocracy. If it's that, "heroes do things the public doesn't order them to" that is a tautology since, "the public rallies around heroes and are fascist" is as bad as "the public is defied by the hero."

And I never said Most Comics do this, you all just felt the need to get overly defensive right away. I didn't mention any Western Superhero Comics in the OP and the only ones I would consider are Frank Miller's.

I do like Early Golden Age Superman, but this appealing to new Deal Era values isn't enough to make him a Socialist.

[clearspira]

Got into a conversation regarding Spider-Man's odd relationship with the police, particularly in PS4's Spider-Man.

Superheroes are inevitably in a weird place regarding policing because they are fundamentally anti-fascist (which a lot of academics refuse to acknowledge because, having worked as one in Literature—a lot of them are snobbish assholes) because they are created as a response to the failures of the policing system from the Great Depression. Adolf Hitler and Goebbels even designated them "Jewish Media" and against the values of the Third Reich — which is a ringing endorsement if I ever heard one.

However, the assumption by Spider-Man is that he is trying to carry water for the system not overthrow it like the X-men who are far more political. It's ironic because Sixties Stan Lee and Dikto weren't unaware of the failures of the police or media. There's a reason Jonah Jameson attacks Spider-Man and there's huge numbers of corruption stories in their run.

Why? Because they were New Yorkers when the NYPD was at its most useless/corrupt.

Its only natural for the police to hate superheroes because superheroes are criminals. Vigilante justice is illegal for a very good reason - judge, jury and sometimes executioner is too much power for anyone. And that is not their only crime: property damage on an incalculably huge scale. And whilst the likes of Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark may secretly be paying for the repairs, the rest of them sure as hell aren't. Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man doesn't play by the rules that the police have to in order to keep YOU safe from injustice. No Miranda Rights, no lawyer, no investigation, no warrant.

And speaking of J Jonah, a respectable newspaper wouldn't endorse a criminal and i'm not sure they would even be allowed to.

And think about this: Captain America frequently goes into other countries, circumvents THEIR laws, beats up THEIR citizens, destroys THEIR buildings... whilst being called Captain AMERICA and wearing the Stars and Stripes. Gee, that wouldn't cause any political fallout in real life.

Say what you like about Marvel:Civil War but I was never on Captain America's side. Bringing superheroes under government control is the wise and sensible cause of action. The best example of this is in ''My Hero Academia.'' Superheroes are businesses with insurance and offices and licences. They're still heroes, they still save people, only now they have accountability.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

The dcau justice league got into the issue of superheroes in particular taking charge.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

https://youtu.be/TQ-Crh3rdQA?t=1115

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Got into a conversation regarding Spider-Man's odd relationship with the police, particularly in PS4's Spider-Man.

Superheroes are inevitably in a weird place regarding policing because they are fundamentally anti-fascist (which a lot of academics refuse to acknowledge because, having worked as one in Literature—a lot of them are snobbish assholes) because they are created as a response to the failures of the policing system from the Great Depression. Adolf Hitler and Goebbels even designated them "Jewish Media" and against the values of the Third Reich — which is a ringing endorsement if I ever heard one.

However, the assumption by Spider-Man is that he is trying to carry water for the system not overthrow it like the X-men who are far more political. It's ironic because Sixties Stan Lee and Dikto weren't unaware of the failures of the police or media. There's a reason Jonah Jameson attacks Spider-Man and there's huge numbers of corruption stories in their run.

Why? Because they were New Yorkers when the NYPD was at its most useless/corrupt.

Its only natural for the police to hate superheroes because superheroes are criminals. Vigilante justice is illegal for a very good reason - judge, jury and sometimes executioner is too much power for anyone. And that is not their only crime: property damage on an incalculably huge scale. And whilst the likes of Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark may secretly be paying for the repairs, the rest of them sure as hell aren't. Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man doesn't play by the rules that the police have to in order to keep YOU safe from injustice. No Miranda Rights, no lawyer, no investigation, no warrant.

I believe a main issue is that superheroes don’t have a constitution or charter that holds them publicly accountable, which is something you can say about Wayne or Stark more so. The public system aims to limit discretion at the individual level as much as possible when it’s a matter of public interest.

And speaking of J Jonah, a respectable newspaper wouldn't endorse a criminal and i'm not sure they would even be allowed to.

And think about this: Captain America frequently goes into other countries, circumvents THEIR laws, beats up THEIR citizens, destroys THEIR buildings... whilst being called Captain AMERICA and wearing the Stars and Stripes. Gee, that wouldn't cause any political fallout in real life.

Say what you like about Marvel:Civil War but I was never on Captain America's side. Bringing superheroes under government control is the wise and sensible cause of action. The best example of this is in ''My Hero Academia.'' Superheroes are businesses with insurance and offices and licences. They're still heroes, they still save people, only now they have accountability.