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Re: Americas Middle Class Massacre *sobs*
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:42 am
by Draco Dracul
TGLS wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:30 am
Draco Dracul wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:34 pm
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:33 pm
Otherwise though, investment has practical value imo.
How? The realities of capitalism requires starting capital, but beyond providing that investors don't do anything, but they both get massive say over the company, and can profit immensely from it's activity without lifting a finger.
That's the point. The business does well, investor does well. Business does badly, well, investor does badly (limited liability complicates this a little, capping how much each investor can lose). The amount they gain is uncapped because unlike a bank, they may not see any of their money back if the business does badly enough.
A) Even when working as intended they are making money by stealing from workers. They do nothing, but can profit well above what the people that actual make the company run are making.
B) It's fairly common for investors to profit off of tanking a company. For instance Bain Capital bought KB Toys and Toys R Us, stripped them of their large amount of liquid cash, saddled them with massive debt and left them to die.
The question I have, if you eliminate investors, where does capital come from?
Initially from the state and redistributed wealth of the capital class, then eventually it is self perpetuating as the state is wound down.
Re: Americas Middle Class Massacre *sobs*
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:00 pm
by TGLS
Draco Dracul wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:42 am
The question I have, if you eliminate investors, where does capital come from?
eventually it is self perpetuating as the state is wound down.
That seems incongruent. State and state-like entities are good at redistributing capital. If the state is dismantled there's nothing stopping people from accumulating capital and farming said capital out to other people.
Re: Americas Middle Class Massacre *sobs*
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:05 pm
by Draco Dracul
TGLS wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:00 pm
Draco Dracul wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:42 am
The question I have, if you eliminate investors, where does capital come from?
eventually it is self perpetuating as the state is wound down.
That seems congruent. State and state-like entities are good at redistributing capital. If the state is dismantled there's nothing stopping people from accumulating capital and farming said capital out to other people.
By the time the state ceases to be capital has ceased to exist because distribution is based on need rather than money.
Re: Americas Middle Class Massacre *sobs*
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:22 pm
by TGLS
Draco Dracul wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:05 pm
TGLS wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:00 pm
Draco Dracul wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:42 am
The question I have, if you eliminate investors, where does capital come from?
eventually it is self perpetuating as the state is wound down.
That seems congruent. State and state-like entities are good at redistributing capital. If the state is dismantled there's nothing stopping people from accumulating capital and farming said capital out to other people.
By the time the state ceases to be capital has ceased to exist because distribution is based on need rather than money.
How are you going to accomplish this? Capital is the land, the tractor and the seed to plant the next crop. It doesn't cease to exist because you eliminate a useful means of exchange.
Re: Americas Middle Class Massacre *sobs*
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:07 pm
by Draco Dracul
TGLS wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:22 pm
Draco Dracul wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:05 pm
TGLS wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:00 pm
Draco Dracul wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:42 am
The question I have, if you eliminate investors, where does capital come from?
eventually it is self perpetuating as the state is wound down.
That seems congruent. State and state-like entities are good at redistributing capital. If the state is dismantled there's nothing stopping people from accumulating capital and farming said capital out to other people.
By the time the state ceases to be capital has ceased to exist because distribution is based on need rather than money.
How are you going to accomplish this? Capital is the land, the tractor and the seed to plant the next crop. It doesn't cease to exist because you eliminate a useful means of exchange.
By holding it in collective ownership and having the use of those things be determined via direct democracy.
Re: Americas Middle Class Massacre *sobs*
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:50 pm
by GreyICE
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:17 pmThat's like saying "if I drop my money in the gutter and it streams down the sewage drain, then where is the value in that as a commodity." Gamestop is recognized as a bubble and the stock market is going to patch some holes in the form of more efficient trading provision via the SEC policy etc.
In the case of Amazon, their capital funds probably aren't particularly bottlenecked. So other than your own personal investment, trying to make a difference in the world by investing in them would be very negligible just based on that. Nonetheless of course they could need more capital for whatever they're doing, and $20 is $20 + i.
In the case of you and Robinhood traders, investing your money in the stock market is actually a practical short, mid, or long term personal financial regimen, given interest has been at the floor since the meltdown.
Oh I see your misunderstanding! You think that people buy Amazon stock from Amazon! You're confusing stock and bonds.
When you buy Amazon stock you're not buying it from Amazon, and Amazon receives no money. There's no benefit to a company whatsoever when their stock is traded. It the stock goes up, it goes up. If it goes down, it goes down. The company itself remains unaffected.
This is why the stock market is such absolute cancer on American society. Many people share your misconception, and it results in them thinking what the investor class is doing is okay.
Re: Americas Middle Class Massacre *sobs*
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:53 pm
by Thebestoftherest
GreyICE wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:50 pm
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:17 pmThat's like saying "if I drop my money in the gutter and it streams down the sewage drain, then where is the value in that as a commodity." Gamestop is recognized as a bubble and the stock market is going to patch some holes in the form of more efficient trading provision via the SEC policy etc.
In the case of Amazon, their capital funds probably aren't particularly bottlenecked. So other than your own personal investment, trying to make a difference in the world by investing in them would be very negligible just based on that. Nonetheless of course they could need more capital for whatever they're doing, and $20 is $20 + i.
In the case of you and Robinhood traders, investing your money in the stock market is actually a practical short, mid, or long term personal financial regimen, given interest has been at the floor since the meltdown.
Oh I see your misunderstanding! You think that people buy Amazon stock from Amazon! You're confusing stock and bonds.
When you buy Amazon stock you're not buying it from Amazon, and Amazon receives no money. There's no benefit to a company whatsoever when their stock is traded. It the stock goes up, it goes up. If it goes down, it goes down. The company itself remains unaffected.
This is why the stock market is such absolute cancer on American society. Many people share your misconception, and it results in them thinking what the investor class is doing is okay.
Then does the sTock market do?
Re: Americas Middle Class Massacre *sobs*
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:57 pm
by GreyICE
That's a great question! And the answer is move money into the hands of those with money, and increase the amount of money in existence by expanding M2.
See, wealth and capital aren't easy to create. They require labor, materials, etc. But money? Money is just a number. It has no inherent value. The stock market actually destroys wealth and capital, but it is very good at creating money, and at redistributing money to the investor class.
Americans are starting to realize with COVID that the record market profits while the average American is suffering indicates that "the economy" and "the stock market" are completely separate entities.
Re: Americas Middle Class Massacre *sobs*
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:06 pm
by BridgeConsoleMasher
GreyICE wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:50 pm
Oh I see your misunderstanding! You think that people buy Amazon stock from Amazon! You're confusing stock and bonds.
When you buy Amazon stock you're not buying it from Amazon, and Amazon receives no money. There's no benefit to a company whatsoever when their stock is traded. It the stock goes up, it goes up. If it goes down, it goes down. The company itself remains unaffected.
This is why the stock market is such absolute cancer on American society. Many people share your misconception, and it results in them thinking what the investor class is doing is okay.
Those stocks have to be offered by the company first, which are foremost an inflow of capital funds.
Re: Americas Middle Class Massacre *sobs*
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:13 pm
by Thebestoftherest
GreyICE wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:57 pm
That's a great question! And the answer is move money into the hands of those with money, and increase the amount of money in existence by expanding M2.
See, wealth and capital aren't easy to create. They require labor, materials, etc. But money? Money is just a number. It has no inherent value. The stock market actually destroys wealth and capital, but it is very good at creating money, and at redistributing money to the investor class.
Americans are starting to realize with COVID that the record market profits while the average American is suffering indicates that "the economy" and "the stock market" are completely separate entities.
Oh oh.