Fascism is Heroarchy

[CharlesPhipps]

My concern is when stories encourage people to see innate value in Sacrificing themselves even when the Sacrifice turns out to be for nothing.

This is BTW the gist of why the society depicted in Starship Troopers is viewed as Fascist.

1. I mean if you do not sacrifice for yourselves, then you have a society of pure selfishness and Randian. Which is ALSO fascist.

2. I mean is the issue that the people are self-sacrificing or the fact they're genocidal authoritarian warmongers?

I mean if you have a society of self-sacrificing individuals without war, it's a paradise because everyone is helping each other.

[MithrandirOlorin]

My concern is when stories encourage people to see innate value in Sacrificing themselves even when the Sacrifice turns out to be for nothing.

This is BTW the gist of why the society depicted in Starship Troopers is viewed as Fascist.

1. I mean if you do not sacrifice for yourselves, then you have a society of pure selfishness and Randian. Which is ALSO fascist.

2. I mean is the issue that the people are self-sacrificing or the fact they're genocidal authoritarian warmongers?

I mean if you have a society of self-sacrificing individuals without war, it's a paradise because everyone is helping each other.

1. Funny you bring her up, I used to be one of those agaisnt calling Rand a Fascist because "you can't be Fascist and Anti-State", it is this Heroarchy thesis that changed my mind. Her Capitalism is distinct even form other Libertarians or Anarcho-Capitalists, her Capitalism is the Heroic Capitalism that Mussolini called the only good kind of Capitalism.

2. What I'm referring to is the notion that the act of Sacrifice is itself inherently Honorable without really any regard for the Sacrifice is for. Some of the movies CulturedThug likes are ones where everyone died for nothing but he sees Heroism even in that rather then Tragedy.

Also Fascists can't imagine Sacrifice without War.
https://solascripturachristianliberty.b ... -lead.html

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

All of that for one tangential consistency?

Sacrifice isn’t exclusive to fascism. People will talk about a parent sacrificing themself for their child, and it’s applauded, without being distinctly encouraged. And nobody is confused about fascistic undertones.

Nobody calls Jonathan Kent’s sacrifice fascist in Man of Steel, which is the most problematic sacrifice in a movie adapted from miller.

[MithrandirOlorin]

I'm not saying it is exclusive, that isn't the point.

[CharlesPhipps]

1. Funny you bring her up, I used to be one of those agaisnt calling Rand a Fascist because "you can't be Fascist and Anti-State", it is this Heroarchy thesis that changed my mind. Her Capitalism is distinct even form other Libertarians or Anarcho-Capitalists, her Capitalism is the Heroic Capitalism that Mussolini called the only good kind of Capitalism.

I think you actually are overthinking it because ATLAS SHRUGGED is about the destruction of the undesirable and the establishment of a Cult of the Leader authoritarian state as well as a Master Race of "Creators." It views the poor and working class as parasites that must be destroyed so the new race can survive.

The old state is destroyed and replaced by a new one ruled by John Gault.

Which is to say I think you're looking subtext when it's screaming text.

[MithrandirOlorin]

1. Funny you bring her up, I used to be one of those agaisnt calling Rand a Fascist because "you can't be Fascist and Anti-State", it is this Heroarchy thesis that changed my mind. Her Capitalism is distinct even form other Libertarians or Anarcho-Capitalists, her Capitalism is the Heroic Capitalism that Mussolini called the only good kind of Capitalism.

I think you actually are overthinking it because ATLAS SHRUGGED is about the destruction of the undesirable and the establishment of a Cult of the Leader authoritarian state as well as a Master Race of "Creators." It views the poor and working class as parasites that must be destroyed so the new race can survive.

The old state is destroyed and replaced by a new one ruled by John Gault.

Which is to say I think you're looking subtext when it's screaming text.

If you defined Fascism based on how central State Authority was to Mussolini then the kind of Atlas Shrugged advocates doesn't fit regardless of how Authorities the revolution to build it has to be.

But it fits the Heroarchy definition because contrary to the way some oversimply Rand's philosophy to just "Selfishness good Altruism bad", there is in fact a type of Heroic Sacrifice Lionized in Rand's writings. John Galt is after all basically Crucified.

[CharlesPhipps]

If you defined Fascism based on how central State Authority was to Mussolini then the kind of Atlas Shrugged advocates doesn't fit regardless of how Authorities the revolution to build it has to be.

But it fits the Heroarchy definition because contrary to the way some oversimply Rand's philosophy to just "Selfishness good Altruism bad", there is in fact a type of Heroic Sacrifice Lionized in Rand's writings. John Galt is after all basically Crucified.

I think you are saying "heroism" when it's very much "Leader" and "Cult."

[MithrandirOlorin]

If you defined Fascism based on how central State Authority was to Mussolini then the kind of Atlas Shrugged advocates doesn't fit regardless of how Authorities the revolution to build it has to be.

But it fits the Heroarchy definition because contrary to the way some oversimply Rand's philosophy to just "Selfishness good Altruism bad", there is in fact a type of Heroic Sacrifice Lionized in Rand's writings. John Galt is after all basically Crucified.

I think you are saying "heroism" when it's very much "Leader" and "Cult."

There are two types of Heroism in the Fascist Cult of Heroism. There is the Heroarchy of the Great Man Leader but also belief in there being Heroism in blindly following and dying for that leader.

[TGLS]

If you defined Fascism based on how central State Authority was to Mussolini then the kind of Atlas Shrugged advocates doesn't fit regardless of how Authorities the revolution to build it has to be.

But it fits the Heroarchy definition because contrary to the way some oversimply Rand's philosophy to just "Selfishness good Altruism bad", there is in fact a type of Heroic Sacrifice Lionized in Rand's writings. John Galt is after all basically Crucified.

I think you are saying "heroism" when it's very much "Leader" and "Cult."

I dunno about that. I feel the key thing about Fascists is neither heroism nor cult-like leader (which is common to many kinds of Authoritarianism). Instead I feel the driving thread of Fascism is the importance of an enemy. Fascists don't pick a leader who proceeds to tell them who the enemy is and what to do about them, they pick a leader who is going to do something about the damned enemy. If Hitler hesitated on the Jews, the Fascists wouldn't have said, "Maybe we shouldn't kill the Jews." They would have said, "Get this phony outta here and bring in someone who will get things done."

Can you honestly imagine killing Hitler would stop the antisemitic mania that had overcome Germany in the 1930s? Compare against the death of Stalin; Stalin died, and suddenly the new leadership decided to stop with the whole doctor's plot and the antisemitic rhetoric surrounding it. Hitler dies, and the raving Antisemites just find a new leader.

On the other hand, without an enemy, the Fascists are nothing. The ideology is centered around destroying enemies. Metternich had an idea what would happen after the Liberals were quashed. FDR had an idea of what would happen after the Axis was crushed. Augustus had a plan if he managed to conquer all the way to the Elbe. Communists have a vague idea of what happens after the class struggle. Theocrats know what happens after all the heretics are converted. Many leaders/ideologies/etc. can see an end to the conflicts that may define them. Fascists can't, because to them, destroying the enemy is an end unto itself.

[MithrandirOlorin]

An Enemy is part of plenty of other ideologies as well, Marxists and Anarchist agree the upper class is the enemy. And Mussolini was not as enemy focused as Hitler, indeed he did more then "hesitate" on the Jewish Question, he was downright Philo-Semitic till 38.

And yes Nazism and Mussolini's Fascism both had plans for what do after defeating the Enemy, the Nazis were going to colonize their lebensraum and Mussolini was gonna rebuild Rome.