Reaching Out Across the Aisle

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Simple fact is people are dealing with titanic forces in themselves to both maintain stability in the changes of recent society (as in the couple centuries) and those that only care about keeping more people being born.

The issue I feel is unwinnable because it is beyond our control, however much we should exercise it in our lives.

Beg pardon?

[Beastro]

Simple fact is people are dealing with titanic forces in themselves to both maintain stability in the changes of recent society (as in the couple centuries) and those that only care about keeping more people being born.

The issue I feel is unwinnable because it is beyond our control, however much we should exercise it in our lives.

Beg pardon?

The drive to reproduce won't be completely tamed by Mankind, nor should it ever. At the same time, sex shouldn't be reduced to simple pleasure mixed in with whatever reproducing we choose at our convenience.

People don't like being subject to forces beyond their control and all~

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Yeah I still have no idea what the yiff you are talking about, dude.

[Nevix]

Geez, did you go to a south Jersey school? Because exchange concussion for broken arm and it sounds like me in school.

(Snip)

So in summation. I tend to agree with you. The system needs to be reworked before more funding is applied.

I went to a western Pennsylvania school. So not far from New Jersey.

Personally, I think School Vouchers are the best option.

Let people CHOOSE which school their child goes to, and force schools that parents pull their children from either improve or close.

When Russia went to market capitalism their allocation for private bidding was largely corrupt and went to private interests over public.

Cronyism/Crony Capitalism is what Russia got.

I also feel that Christian values are fundamentally incompatible with capitalism, which by its very nature empowers the powerful and stomps on the meek.

"Capitalism" is freedom to buy, sell, and create as you want/need to, with the only restrictions needed being those prohibiting monopolies, worker abuse, and other such abuses of people.

It is not the free market itself that centers power, but the lack of enforcement of antitrust laws, and government regulations that choke off smaller businesses.

Capitalism is good as long as you arbitrarily declare the bad parts of capitalism to not be capitalism. Antitrust laws are by nature anti-free market as they represent restrictions on the market. Trusts and other forms of monopolies are the natural end state of the free market as when the economy is a competition eventually someone will be the undisputed champion.

Communism and socialism stifle freedom, giving people no choice but to obey the state.

That's a discription of authoritarianism, not communism or socialism. While there are authoritarian versions of both, like Stalinism, it is not inherent to the ideology. Additionally capitalism has a long history of propping up authoritarian regimes, not only have numerous south American democracies been overthrown by the demands of fruit corporations, but many american capitalists, most notably Henry Ford, where huge fans of the Nazis.

Cronyism (typically misnamed as "Crony Capitalism") has enough control and interference to undermine the free marker aspects, due to always having people who gain advantages because they're connected.

A wide variety of other systems are just variations on a free market system, with varying degrees of limited regulation and control.

Being able to buy a law is an example of the free market, not a perversion of it.

Free markets are the most compatible with Christianity.

Free markets are deeply incompatible with Christianity as they inherently advantage the followers of Mammon, drag down the the followers of Christ, and build a level of hypocrisy that wod put the pharisees to shame as you get alleged men of God squeezing their parishioners for money for a second private jet.

I forget if I have specifically said this here:

A Free Market system NEEDS the checks of Anti-Trust and anti worker abuse laws to prevent the exact abuses you highlight.

It is also OUR responsibility to make sure that televangelists aren't conmen enriching themselves first, or following the doctrine of the world instead of the Word of God.

Communism and socialism ARE authoritarian, because there is no way to implement either system without using government force and hard line authoritarianism. They CAN'T work outside of theory because they ignore human nature.

Both communism and socialism have ALWAYS resulted in shortages, suffering, and death, to the tune of over 100 million. Both also either corrupt or oppress the religious/churches.

The "Free Market", AKA: Freedom (With the aforementioned limitations against monopolies and abuses) is the best of all the bad options, and is the only system that has consistently raised the standard of living over the years.

Last note: I am a Christian, but I am a non denominational non trinitarian Christian.

Nevix, please don't take offense at this but I have to ask, what is your stance on Kyle Rittenhouse?

From the videos and evidence I have seen, Kyle Rittenhouse was defending himself after being both shot at, physically attacked, and chased by a crowd/group of people.

While an argument can be made that Kyle should not have been there in the first place, the same argument can be made about all of the other people involved, that no one should have been there under those circumstances.

I also consider it a tragedy that the riots escalated to the point that Kyle had to defend himself from physical attack.


I am pro second amendment, and believe that there is an absolute right of a United States citizen to protect their life/the lives of others. I also want to see further societal and economic reforms that repair the faults in society that have developed over the last 60 or so years, and reduce the occurrences of violent crimes and all types of shootings.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Geez, did you go to a south Jersey school? Because exchange concussion for broken arm and it sounds like me in school.

(Snip)

So in summation. I tend to agree with you. The system needs to be reworked before more funding is applied.

I went to a western Pennsylvania school. So not far from New Jersey.

Personally, I think School Vouchers are the best option.

Let people CHOOSE which school their child goes to, and force schools that parents pull their children from either improve or close.

Is this an appropriate measure for an essentially public good though? Don't schools have capacity problems as is, or do you expect the school system to follow a normal path of urbanization?

[Draco Dracul]

I also feel that Christian values are fundamentally incompatible with capitalism, which by its very nature empowers the powerful and stomps on the meek.

"Capitalism" is freedom to buy, sell, and create as you want/need to, with the only restrictions needed being those prohibiting monopolies, worker abuse, and other such abuses of people.

It is not the free market itself that centers power, but the lack of enforcement of antitrust laws, and government regulations that choke off smaller businesses.

Capitalism is good as long as you arbitrarily declare the bad parts of capitalism to not be capitalism. Antitrust laws are by nature anti-free market as they represent restrictions on the market. Trusts and other forms of monopolies are the natural end state of the free market as when the economy is a competition eventually someone will be the undisputed champion.

Communism and socialism stifle freedom, giving people no choice but to obey the state.

That's a discription of authoritarianism, not communism or socialism. While there are authoritarian versions of both, like Stalinism, it is not inherent to the ideology. Additionally capitalism has a long history of propping up authoritarian regimes, not only have numerous south American democracies been overthrown by the demands of fruit corporations, but many american capitalists, most notably Henry Ford, where huge fans of the Nazis.

Cronyism (typically misnamed as "Crony Capitalism") has enough control and interference to undermine the free marker aspects, due to always having people who gain advantages because they're connected.

A wide variety of other systems are just variations on a free market system, with varying degrees of limited regulation and control.

Being able to buy a law is an example of the free market, not a perversion of it.

Free markets are the most compatible with Christianity.

Free markets are deeply incompatible with Christianity as they inherently advantage the followers of Mammon, drag down the the followers of Christ, and build a level of hypocrisy that wod put the pharisees to shame as you get alleged men of God squeezing their parishioners for money for a second private jet.

I forget if I have specifically said this here:

A Free Market system NEEDS the checks of Anti-Trust and anti worker abuse laws to prevent the exact abuses you highlight.

If the Free Market can only be made to work by restricting it, then by definition it does not work.

It is also OUR responsibility to make sure that televangelists aren't conmen enriching themselves first, or following the doctrine of the world instead of the Word of God.

Televangelists are almost universally profits of Mammon basking in wealth as they back forces, like Reagan, that steal from the poor to give to the rich.

Communism and socialism ARE authoritarian, because there is no way to implement either system without using government force and hard line authoritarianism. They CAN'T work outside of theory because they ignore human nature.

While not pure socialism a number of countries have achieved great success in ensuring both prosperity and personal liberty through mixed economies where in major industries, though not the whole of the economy, are owned by the government and the benefits are spread to the people rather than horded by the wealthy.

Both communism and socialism have ALWAYS resulted in shortages, suffering, and death, to the tune of over 100 million. Both also either corrupt or oppress the religious/churches.

And right now the failure of capitalism to respond to a crisis is causing shortages, suffering, and death with said proponents of capitalism opposing measures that would ease the suffering and encouraging people to die for the sake of the economy. And honestly I have never seen a system that corrupts the church so thoroughly as capitalism.

The "Free Market", AKA: Freedom (With the aforementioned limitations against monopolies and abuses) is the best of all the bad options, and is the only system that has consistently raised the standard of living over the years.

The highest standards of living in the world are under Nordic countries that put heavy restrictions on the market and have major industries owned by the government. Which indicates that a mixed economy favoring

Last note: I am a Christian, but I am a non denominational non trinitarian Christian.

I'll be honest, I personally cannot consider you a Christian as all branches of Christianity with an unbroken lineage to Christ are descended from the council of Nicaea which formally established the Trinity as a core part of Christianity.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Okay. We've both put in good faith efforts. We've talked and listened.

Nevix, I am going to make an educated guess about why you've been stabbed in the hand so many times, why you get blocked or banned or canceled for being conservative. I don't speak for all leftists or Democrats in this respect, and I am attempting to not get personal, but I'm giving it a shot.

It is probably because, directly and/or indirectly, they are harmed by the policies you support.

Me and people I care about are harmed by right-wing policies. Your energy policies contaminate our water and make natural disasters worse. Your religious freedom bills allow healthcare providers to deny us care. The judges that your party appoints to the supreme court will try to take away our right to marry the people we love, and have already ruled that we can be fired from our jobs and evicted from our houses for not being cishet. Your economic policies will stop us from getting raises, make it easier for employers to discard us and pay us less than our work is worth, put our lives at risk because safety measures reduce their profit margins, make it harder for us to organize and strike for better conditions, and generally impede our efforts to move from utterly desperate poverty to a more stable, comfortable kind of poverty.

This is just the open, legal policy.

On a more personal note, however exemplary your conduct may be, we have spent the last four years being terrorized by this president's supporters. We've been called slurs online and from the windows of passing cars. We've listened to an endless refrain of "fuck your feelings". We've gotten death threats. We've been told we don't belong in this country anymore. We've had white nationalist supporters of him beating us, stabbing us, and shooting us. And you work to free and empower these people so they can try to kill again.

I'm not even going to get into what the president, personally, has done and said.

So, I appreciate the effort. It was worth a shot. But I don't think it's any good. I don't think any amount of effort on your part, short of changing political ideology and voting behavior, can bridge this gap. I say this, without anger, judgement, or any intended insult, but whenever you get your way politically, it will make life worse for me and the people I care about.

For what it's worth, I wish you drinkable water, free healthcare, and legal protections in employment. We want that for everyone.

I really hope you don't take this as a personal insult or a betrayal of trust, but I'll also understand if you have difficulty taking it any other way.

The rest of y'all can keep using this thread, but I don't think there's any point in me trying anymore.

[ProfessorDetective]

Okay. We've both put in good faith efforts. We've talked and listened.

Nevix, I am going to make an educated guess about why you've been stabbed in the hand so many times, why you get blocked or banned or canceled for being conservative. I don't speak for all leftists or Democrats in this respect, and I am attempting to not get personal, but I'm giving it a shot.

It is probably because, directly and/or indirectly, they are harmed by the policies you support.

Me and people I care about are harmed by right-wing policies. Your energy policies contaminate our water and make natural disasters worse. Your religious freedom bills allow healthcare providers to deny us care. The judges that your party appoints to the supreme court will try to take away our right to marry the people we love, and have already ruled that we can be fired from our jobs and evicted from our houses for not being cishet. Your economic policies will stop us from getting raises, make it easier for employers to discard us and pay us less than our work is worth, put our lives at risk because safety measures reduce their profit margins, make it harder for us to organize and strike for better conditions, and generally impede our efforts to move from utterly desperate poverty to a more stable, comfortable kind of poverty.

This is just the open, legal policy.

On a more personal note, however exemplary your conduct may be, we have spent the last four years being terrorized by this president's supporters. We've been called slurs online and from the windows of passing cars. We've listened to an endless refrain of "fuck your feelings". We've gotten death threats. We've been told we don't belong in this country anymore. We've had white nationalist supporters of him beating us, stabbing us, and shooting us. And you work to free and empower these people so they can try to kill again.

I'm not even going to get into what the president, personally, has done and said.

So, I appreciate the effort. It was worth a shot. But I don't think it's any good. I don't think any amount of effort on your part, short of changing political ideology and voting behavior, can bridge this gap. I say this, without anger, judgement, or any intended insult, but whenever you get your way politically, it will make life worse for me and the people I care about.

For what it's worth, I wish you drinkable water, free healthcare, and legal protections in employment. We want that for everyone.

I really hope you don't take this as a personal insult or a betrayal of trust, but I'll also understand if you have difficulty taking it any other way.

The rest of y'all can keep using this thread, but I don't think there's any point in me trying anymore.

This. Seriously, all most of them do with their freedom is to try to take ours away.

[Nevix]

Okay. We've both put in good faith efforts. We've talked and listened.

Nevix, I am going to make an educated guess about why you've been stabbed in the hand so many times, why you get blocked or banned or canceled for being conservative. I don't speak for all leftists or Democrats in this respect, and I am attempting to not get personal, but I'm giving it a shot.

It is probably because, directly and/or indirectly, they are harmed by the policies you support.

Me and people I care about are harmed by right-wing policies. Your energy policies contaminate our water and make natural disasters worse. Your religious freedom bills allow healthcare providers to deny us care. The judges that your party appoints to the supreme court will try to take away our right to marry the people we love, and have already ruled that we can be fired from our jobs and evicted from our houses for not being cishet. Your economic policies will stop us from getting raises, make it easier for employers to discard us and pay us less than our work is worth, put our lives at risk because safety measures reduce their profit margins, make it harder for us to organize and strike for better conditions, and generally impede our efforts to move from utterly desperate poverty to a more stable, comfortable kind of poverty.

This is just the open, legal policy.

On a more personal note, however exemplary your conduct may be, we have spent the last four years being terrorized by this president's supporters. We've been called slurs online and from the windows of passing cars. We've listened to an endless refrain of "fuck your feelings". We've gotten death threats. We've been told we don't belong in this country anymore. We've had white nationalist supporters of him beating us, stabbing us, and shooting us. And you work to free and empower these people so they can try to kill again.

I'm not even going to get into what the president, personally, has done and said.

So, I appreciate the effort. It was worth a shot. But I don't think it's any good. I don't think any amount of effort on your part, short of changing political ideology and voting behavior, can bridge this gap. I say this, without anger, judgement, or any intended insult, but whenever you get your way politically, it will make life worse for me and the people I care about.

For what it's worth, I wish you drinkable water, free healthcare, and legal protections in employment. We want that for everyone.

I really hope you don't take this as a personal insult or a betrayal of trust, but I'll also understand if you have difficulty taking it any other way.

The rest of y'all can keep using this thread, but I don't think there's any point in me trying anymore.

This. Seriously, all most of them do with their freedom is to try to take ours away.

If conservative environmental policy is so bad, then why was the U.S. the ONLY country to meet the Paris Accord standards, even without being a member of said accords?

If conservative monetary policy is so bad, then why did the economy boom when the Trump tax cuts and regulatory reform were put in place, and why did the GDP grow by 33% recently even while the coronavirus is disrupting some areas?

Why did wages rise under those same economic policies?

Why the obsession with gay marriage, which allows atheist activists to attack the religious, when even the most die hard conservatives were coming around to Civil Unions?

And on the civility in discourse outside of me front?

Well... there's that nerve that made me write the second post of this thread being hit hard.

So:

HAVE YOU EVEN SEEN THE PEOPLE CALLING FOR FORMING MOBS IF MEMBERS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ARE SEEN IN PUBLIC?

And how about the targeting of Trump supporters during the 2016 campaign being targeted for harassment until they get antagonized enough to lash out, then only having the few seconds of the lashing out played without the harassment that precedes it?

STEVE SCALISE. Targeted and almost killed.

The LITERAL KILLING OF A TRUMP SUPPORTER IN A TARGETED ATTACK.

Carter Page's persecution on false grounds:
https://youtu.be/qODProeRQ4c

Bill Clinton being held up as a leading light of the left.



This is exactly what happens all too often.

No matter what I say (no matter what conservatives/republicans/independents say), I (we) get the same litany of condemnation, and then ignored, dismissed, and often insulted to boot.

Any success it attributed to the left, and all failures get attributed to the right.



Edited to remove some of the vitriolic bitterness, and to keep it to regular bitterness.

[Nevix]

Geez, did you go to a south Jersey school? Because exchange concussion for broken arm and it sounds like me in school.

(Snip)

So in summation. I tend to agree with you. The system needs to be reworked before more funding is applied.

I went to a western Pennsylvania school. So not far from New Jersey.

Personally, I think School Vouchers are the best option.

Let people CHOOSE which school their child goes to, and force schools that parents pull their children from either improve or close.

Is this an appropriate measure for an essentially public good though? Don't schools have capacity problems as is, or do you expect the school system to follow a normal path of urbanization?

Our current system is broken.

More schools can be built following the successful model with the demand (provided they aren't blocked politically).

Throwing money at the current public schools hasn't worked for decades, and enforcing accountability directly on the current schools is being resisted to a ridiculous degree.