LordFeagans wrote: ↑Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:11 pm
I would hate to be a child in that society. Imagine, you're in school, growing up with your friends and classmates. You discover that your best friend is supposed to be the future leader of the society, your brother is going to be one of the head engineers and there you are, getting your soul crushed as you discover that your future career is going to be cleaning the toilets and restocking the toilet paper and tampon dispensers, then you're told: "Oh, don't worry, you'll grow to love what you do." You tell your friends the bad news and the one who will be the future leader laughs, then purposely clogs the toilet and tells you that it's time to start on your grand career and plunge his crapper. Then as you grow up you discover that there is the perfect number of toilet cleaners in this perfect society, and it's just you. You have no peers, you have no coworkers, it's just you and your plunger and a society that claims to be perfect, but still chooses to indulge in "Taco Tuesday".
It makes me think of one of the quotes from Sid Meier's: Alpha Centauri
"My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack. Specially designed for labor, the Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing except to perform his duties. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?
-Chairman Sheng-ji Yang, "Essays on Mind and Matter"
If you are built from the ground up to perform a specific job within society, to the point that you cannot full any kind of purpose or fulfillment except doing that job, would it be ethical to remove you from that job? The people are basically cogs in a machine, but most of them cannot imagine any other way of life but everyone is so co-dependent that even if you remove those few that want to leave, the rest of society will begin to break down. This was the point Conor was trying to make to Picard that in a way, it has to be everyone or no one, because status quo can't be maintained, so even those who want to remain won't be able to eventually. I think Picard made the right decision in the end, he doesn't point blank refuse the request for asylum but he does urge them to wait awhile, consider their situation and then decide. I mean we saw how much of a shock it was just having a couple visitors, what happens when one of these people comes face to face with the rest of the Federation, not to mention the other races out there. So I would caution any of them about being hasty about this.
drewder wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:15 am
Except that they do love it.
Are we sure about that? We only see the opinions of a few individuals who are in leadership roles and even then one wants to leave as soon as she realizes its an option. Maybe others never even really considered the option to leave and do something else because that wasn't something that existed. Maybe once they learned they could not love their role, they didn't any longer.
Beyond that this place is not a stable society before the Enterprise came. If a society can be horribly damaged by someone dying in an accident then its not exactly robust. What if that physicist's experiment went wrong? What if toilet cleaner guy slipped and hit his head? What if someone fell on those stairs? A society that cant stand to loose any one single individual how is it healthy?
drewder wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:15 am
Except that they do love it.
Are we sure about that? We only see the opinions of a few individuals who are in leadership roles and even then one wants to leave as soon as she realizes its an option. Maybe others never even really considered the option to leave and do something else because that wasn't something that existed. Maybe once they learned they could not love their role, they didn't any longer.
Beyond that this place is not a stable society before the Enterprise came. If a society can be horribly damaged by someone dying in an accident then its not exactly robust. What if that physicist's experiment went wrong? What if toilet cleaner guy slipped and hit his head? What if someone fell on those stairs? A society that cant stand to loose any one single individual how is it healthy?
Another thing is what happens when they are not alone anymore? They settle this planet because they wanted to be isolated from the rest of humanity, but then humanity started to catch up with them. It is the one detail that is not discussed in the episode but it would have been fitting if the leaders were smugly confident their society would survive because of their isolation, only for Troi to explain that the Enterprise was doing a survey the region for future colonization and the first outposts should be established within a year. If a single, brief contact with the Enterprise nearly wrecked this society, what happens when it is in regular contact with the rest of The Federation?
LordFeagans wrote: ↑Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:11 pm
I would hate to be a child in that society.
Except no, you wouldn't. That's entirely the point. You would love being what you are.
You're trying to apply you to a you that isn't you. It won't work.
The implications of that are pure horror.
''And here are our cotton pickers - don't worry - they love it.''
''And here is my wife. Don't worry, she loves spending her days cleaning my house.''
Yeah, definitely. That's basically the entire point of something like Brave New World as an examination of a situation where "what if it were possible to do this?"
From inside, it's Utopia where no one is ever unhappy with their lives. From outside, it's an authoritarian (depending on how it's structured and who decides what shape society has) cult filled with brainwashing horror.
I think the Federation manages to have a Utopia that feels a lot less horrifying (that is, you have to look much harder to find the cracks). Your mileage may vary.
Utopia is also a point of view. Look at the Ferengi. On the one hand, the Rules of Acquisition are binding to the point that the government can strip your assets because of them and they hate women to the point that they are not allowed out in public wearing clothes. On the other, supposedly, generations have enjoyed no war, genocide or slavery which are the three pillars of world peace.
You could make an argument that their system is unfair and yet has produced a society that is safe, rich, prosperous and powerful.
I just watched the review again and Chuck noted that some find the fact that Troi apologises for having sex to be a double standard.
And of course, it is. Not because of sexism. But because once again of Poor Dumb Harry who is still the only person in Star Trek history to be punished for going Where No Man Has Gone Before with an alien.
Sisko invoked PD only once. He may have only spoken the word once, but he committed the PD dozens of times. During the Javert arc, Sisko pogrommed all known Maquis planets. Ain't nothing more Prime Directive-y than genocide.
Self sealing stem bolts don't just seal themselves, you know.
Chuck's rant about letting people die reminded me of a WORSE example of this. At least here Picard seemed to acknowledge they WERE right to save the people... but then there was the season 7 episode Homeward. What a piece of shit character assassination that was with Picard self-righteously on the bridge declaring it was good that an entire people were dying of natural disaster instead of trying to rescue some of them and continually being angry that someone was helping people while still trying to maintain their culture. What a load. Worthy of 0/10 whenever we get to it just for that alone.
Part of the episode is also showing that the propaganda shouldn't be taken at face value. Scientist lady was genetically engineered to be a scientist and love it, according to them, and her encounter with the Enterprise points out that she's a country doctor in a steampunk setting compared to the Enterprise.
Which means she'd never be happy in Hooterville after this because, of course, isolated paradise is bumfuck nowhere once you live outside it.
^ That means she isn't really exercising free will; she's doing EXACTLY what she was programmed to do, in a way.
As for Picard's PD speech, I imagine he meant that the colony is going to die out because the Enterprise contacted them, so I don't think the complaint is justified here- it's not a case of "save them" or "don't save them" so much as "quick death" vs "slow death", since the people who stayed on the colony will probably become miserable depressed yet unable to leave. Perhaps he could have explained it better, but that is probably what he is going for.
