TNG - Half a Life

[AllanO]

Name one? I think the only one that came close was New Zealand, and they're a small island, so they were able to basically seal the borders. And they still have lockdowns. Meanwhile Sweden is a country that had no restrictions... and about the same numbers as anywhere else.

Countries that had really low numbers (much lower than Sweden) and had lockdowns and things like mask mandates (although Sweden had those too by the end) and are not islands (or continents like Australia): Norway, Denmark, South Korea.

Well okay I guess I can't name one that is not at least a peninsula (however Norway is sharing its peninsula with Sweden that has to count for something).

Sweden had far fewer mandatory government restrictions during the initial wave (they restricted gatherings of more than 50 people in March of 2020 and closed high schools and universities, for example), but did have a marked decrease in activity outside of what was officially mandated including businesses either closing down temporarily or having so few customers they might as well have been closed etc. this was in some sense voluntary but things being closed and no one going out is the effect of lockdown that people complained about, so if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. If we actually define lockdown on a spectrum in terms of how much normal life is effectively restricted they had less lockdown, but the idea that there was no change in daily life in terms of frequenting public places, bars, stores etc. would just be wrong.

In terms of GDP lost in the initial wave (spring of 2020) it was the equal of or greater than neighbours who "officially" locked down, so they were as restricted on the economic front as those who had "lockdowns". Further they moved away from the relative lack of official restrictions to more and more restrictions (mask mandates, more distancing requirements etc.) including the option for widespread heavy lockdown although it looks like they never implemented the most extensive lockdown measures they allowed themselves. Finally their numbers in terms of cases and deaths were far worse than Norway which is like a geographic twin of Sweden and worse than neighbour Denmark so claims that what they did worked just as well as what other countries did seems difficult to support.

Sources:
Sweden during the first wave did not have normal life: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/hist ... s-a-luxury
Sweden had official government restrictions banning large gatherings even in March 2020 when they had no "lockdown": https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN21E1XY
Sweden had just as much reduction in economic activity as near neighbours like Denmark in the first wave: https://www.thelocal.dk/20200814/denmar ... d-quarter/
Sweden passed lockdown laws in January of 2021 that would have allowed sweeping closures of businesses etc. but does not seem to have used the option (but clearly were considering it): https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden- ... oll-2021-1
Sweden had many more deaths than neighbouring countries: https://katv.com/news/coronavirus/swede ... strictions
If you don't like officially designated COVID deaths we can go by excess deaths compared to previous years in which case again Sweden worse than its neighbours: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detai ... -estimates
A breakdown of Sweden's pandemic response that makes it clear that while they had fewer official restrictions and fewer actual restrictions than many other countries they still had a fair few restrictions especially later in the pandemic: https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden- ... ate-2021-8

[DoctorWTF]

I think more people would give a fig about obesity and exercise if the effort got them another 30 years of prime life rather than another 30 years of having someone wipe your ass for you because you have forgotten how to.

As I understand, it can if you start early enough. If you wait until your first heart attack to give a damn about healthy living, yeah, you're not going to benefit quite as much.

Rewatching this review again, that really is a central problem with the episode. I would liked to have seen more of this society. Perhaps once upon a time there was an incurable disease that mostly hits old people and kills you in such agony that society decided that it was better to die young as one example.

As I recall, it was stated that their society was getting to the point where taking care of the elderly was consuming way more resources than they could spare, though they didn't go into detail on just how bad things got. For what it's worth, we're kind of seeing shades of that in real life; many of the medical advancements from the past few decades have given people more time to lie around unable to do much of anything for themselves. People who care for aging relatives at home often have their career, quality of life, and mental health go right down the toilet, and those who complain about their situation are often made out to be uncaring monsters by people who probably have no clue what it's like living with someone who requires 24 hour nursing care.

[CharlesPhipps]

As I recall, it was stated that their society was getting to the point where taking care of the elderly was consuming way more resources than they could spare, though they didn't go into detail on just how bad things got. For what it's worth, we're kind of seeing shades of that in real life; many of the medical advancements from the past few decades have given people more time to lie around unable to do much of anything for themselves. People who care for aging relatives at home often have their career, quality of life, and mental health go right down the toilet, and those who complain about their situation are often made out to be uncaring monsters by people who probably have no clue what it's like living with someone who requires 24 hour nursing care.

As a guy who has had literally dozens of relatives die in horrifying ways due to Parkinsons, dementia, and other things -- their excuse actually makes me want their sun to blow up. What a bunch of selfish psychopaths.

[clearspira]

As I recall, it was stated that their society was getting to the point where taking care of the elderly was consuming way more resources than they could spare, though they didn't go into detail on just how bad things got. For what it's worth, we're kind of seeing shades of that in real life; many of the medical advancements from the past few decades have given people more time to lie around unable to do much of anything for themselves. People who care for aging relatives at home often have their career, quality of life, and mental health go right down the toilet, and those who complain about their situation are often made out to be uncaring monsters by people who probably have no clue what it's like living with someone who requires 24 hour nursing care.

As a guy who has had literally dozens of relatives die in horrifying ways due to Parkinsons, dementia, and other things -- their excuse actually makes me want their sun to blow up. What a bunch of selfish psychopaths.

This is not a plot that you are likely to get in Far Eastern media. They have such a different culture when it comes to the elderly over there. Its not uncommon to find four generations living in one household. And from what i'm told, age is often considered a sign of maturity and wisdom, which makes it an almost desirable trait.

[MightyDavidson]

As I recall, it was stated that their society was getting to the point where taking care of the elderly was consuming way more resources than they could spare, though they didn't go into detail on just how bad things got. For what it's worth, we're kind of seeing shades of that in real life; many of the medical advancements from the past few decades have given people more time to lie around unable to do much of anything for themselves. People who care for aging relatives at home often have their career, quality of life, and mental health go right down the toilet, and those who complain about their situation are often made out to be uncaring monsters by people who probably have no clue what it's like living with someone who requires 24 hour nursing care.

As a guy who has had literally dozens of relatives die in horrifying ways due to Parkinsons, dementia, and other things -- their excuse actually makes me want their sun to blow up. What a bunch of selfish psychopaths.

Gotta agree with you there Charles. It'd serve them right too, given they killed the guy who was working on a way to prevent their sun from blowing up. Hell in a few more years he might've actually saved them all. Stupidity on that level ought to have consequences.

[Frustration]

So I don't mean any or every kind of social pressure is somehow negating consent or volition. I am saying the kind of universal obedience (the implication of the episode as I remember it is that in hundreds of years no one ever did not commit suicide when they turned 60) to this tradition suggests that the enforcement of this must be at the level that it means there could not have been normal straightforward consent.

And there you're wrong. The way the aliens react to the news strongly indicates that unwillingness to complete the traditional suicide isn't unexpected or new. Furthermore, there is quite clearly a long list of social consequences associated with expressing unease or discontent with the tradition, much less actively flouting it.

"You'll bring shame and dishonor to the family" is and has been a powerful motivator in many cultures, including our own.

That kind of pressure can be extensive, without qualifying as coercion.

[Frustration]

I will further note that the equal and opposite pressure does exist - people who feel that their quality of life has downgraded to the point that they no longer receive satisfaction in life are accused of not considering the feelings of their loved ones, have their emotions medicalized and considered as a disease to be treated, and can even have their civil rights and freedoms revoked and be declared insane and incompetent.

[Frustration]

It is of course a principle that breeds isolationism and also complete disdain for other races as the assumption that they cannot survive contact with other one is born from a misguided sense of superiority.

'Superiority' doesn't need to be an issue, it can simply be a matter of power. It's been long noted that militarily-occupied peoples tend to adopt cultural practices of their occupiers - like the ridiculous Japanese custom of making a 'V' sign with the fingers in photographs. If the inequality in power is great enough, there doesn't need to be anything as obvious as an occupation - a sort of cultural osmosis sets in.

[RobbyB1982]

No option we had for the bulk of 2020 to avoid lockdown did not sound like it had come out of an eugenics textbook: kill the old and the sick so that the young and healthy may flourish. And I don't think we'll have the answer by the next pandemic either although hopefully by then we'll have better methods of curing viruses.

Other countries locked down, *really* locked down for two months, and universally wore masks, and cleared out all their cases, 100%.

We could have licked it in a single month if everyone just ACTUALLY done what they were supposed to. Don't make "wear a damn mask" a political issue. But its too late to fix that mentality now.

Name one? I think the only one that came close was New Zealand, and they're a small island, so they were able to basically seal the borders. And they still have lockdowns. Meanwhile Sweden is a country that had no restrictions... and about the same numbers as anywhere else.

You're replying to my comment a YEAR ago, so things have obviously changed since then.

At the time though, yes, New Zealand, Australia, Taiwan and other such locations were able to keep it down with relative fuss because they took it seriously as soon as the first case hit, and they've been able to spend the last year and a half largely unaffected.

Someone above responded in pretty solid detail and with appropriate links, so I'll leave it to them.

[Frustration]

The US wasn't going to take the necessary measures no matter what, so that criticism is valid, but it's worth noting that it didn't truly have the option. Some of our big cities are huge international travel hubs. By the time the disease was recognized it had spread too far to be truly contained.