Madner Kami wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:00 pmGiven that standard, going with Facism was fine as it's not the system that's broken, but the people. Conversely, going with a democracy would've ended up just as badly if that standard is applied.
Bad history aside, I get the idea of what they were going for. It actually fits well with the Prime Directive and probably should be THE PD but people are too irritated with some elements to really see it. John Gill wants to uplift the primitive Ekos and thinks, like many dictators/colonialists, the best way to do so is absolute dictatorship as well as complete control over their society.
After all, HE is an enlightened Federation citizen.
It's logic that has been used by plenty of RL dictators. He also mobilizes it on military lines because that sort of absolute control is mostly achieved in strict hierarchy.
However, that sort of system immediately invites abuse as well as power mongering.
I wonder if they should have changed the Nazi symbols a bit to make it more about the idea than the specific--even though I actually give them credit for attacking Nazism directly. "He Lives" for example is the only episode of the Twilight Zone to get hate mail--because it was anti-fascist.
I think the costume thing and why he used exact uniforms and symbols is the costumes already existed on a Hollywood lot. So they save money reusing what is already there.
There is also something to John Gill not understanding the history. We have people now that want to alter history books to gloss over some nasty things that have been done in the past. Books and films should not be seen because a certain word was uttered and so forth. Then add in WW3 to the mix? You have a great chance of information having been simply lost. So a historian learned the wrong lessons.
Madner Kami wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:00 pmGiven that standard, going with Facism was fine as it's not the system that's broken, but the people. Conversely, going with a democracy would've ended up just as badly if that standard is applied.
Bad history aside, I get the idea of what they were going for. It actually fits well with the Prime Directive and probably should be THE PD but people are too irritated with some elements to really see it. John Gill wants to uplift the primitive Ekos and thinks, like many dictators/colonialists, the best way to do so is absolute dictatorship as well as complete control over their society.
After all, HE is an enlightened Federation citizen.
It's logic that has been used by plenty of RL dictators. He also mobilizes it on military lines because that sort of absolute control is mostly achieved in strict hierarchy.
However, that sort of system immediately invites abuse as well as power mongering.
I wonder if they should have changed the Nazi symbols a bit to make it more about the idea than the specific--even though I actually give them credit for attacking Nazism directly. "He Lives" for example is the only episode of the Twilight Zone to get hate mail--because it was anti-fascist.
I think the costume thing and why he used exact uniforms and symbols is the costumes already existed on a Hollywood lot. So they save money reusing what is already there.
There is also something to John Gill not understanding the history. We have people now that want to alter history books to gloss over some nasty things that have been done in the past. Books and films should not be seen because a certain word was uttered and so forth. Then add in WW3 to the mix? You have a great chance of information having been simply lost. So a historian learned the wrong lessons.
Yes, pretty much same reason as A Piece of the Action. They were able to use common costume, props, and sets. That's a big cost saver.
I've come to the conclusion that the subcutaneous transponder was created to avoid Shatner faking another stomach cramp to trick the guards and escape.
Seriously, why was this thing never used before or since? Why introduce something that clearly would take the drama out of nearly every episode?
cdrood wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:53 pm
I've come to the conclusion that the subcutaneous transponder was created to avoid Shatner faking another stomach cramp to trick the guards and escape.
Seriously, why was this thing never used before or since? Why introduce something that clearly would take the drama out of nearly every episode?
Didn't it basically come up in Undiscovered Country? Kirk and Spock knew there was a chance Kirk and McCoy would be taken prisoner, and there was not time for a transponder. So he put the patch on Kirk. Who was well aware of that fact.
A less charitable reading of John Gill (and why would we give him a charitable one) is that John Gill suffered from being an armchair dictator who believed with absolute power and his superior Federation brain, he could make a society from the ground up into a utopia. Which actually is the message of the show, that you can't incorporate the rhetoric and tropes of fascism without triggering all the ethnic hatred and infighting that it brings. If the show was made during TNG, John might have recreated Cardassian society.
Mind you, it's easy to lose the narrative that this episode was a critique of Nazi apologia and romanticization due to the fact it falls into the "Nazis were efficient" mindset when they were absolutely not. Plenty of people today are sadly romanticizing them and in the Sixties, there was already a big movement to say the Werchmact were not guilty of any real atrocities, that certain Nazis were "worthy opponents" (Rommel especially), and to downplay their atrocities on the way to full on Holocaust denial. A reminder that David Irving was once a respected historian right up until the trial exposed was a complete pile of garbage he was.
It's a case of "don't shoot the message" for me here that the show is saying that even WERE fascism incredibly efficient and have really snazzy uniforms, it would still become a self-defeating infighting-ridden mess. Speaking as an academic, while I would have no sympathy for such a man, I can believe a historian developed a god complex and "White Savior" narrative for himself. It's cheesy and ridiculous they used the actual iconography and uniforms for budget reasons and I'm perhaps taking this VERY Pulpy and ridiculous concept too seriously but I admit that I like the concept on an inherent level: soime guy takes his 23rd century technology to a "primitive" society and sets himself up as a god.
Heart of Darkness in SPACE. It ironically avoids a lot of racist tropes with the typical adaptations of Conrad but has the same basic message of anti-imperialist thinking, now with anti-fascist thinking as well.
John Meredyth Lucas wrote this episode out of his fascination with the functioning of totalitarian regimes (especially Nazi Germany) and their ability to stay in power. [1] William Shatner quoted him to Chris Kreski, in Star Trek Memories, as saying that "it was fun to write a well-meaning Nazi, a guy who for the right cause completely fucked everything up. Y'know, we started with the question, 'How the hell did Nazism get past the shits and the street gangs and take root among the basically decent people? How did sane, reasonable adults come to buy into this bullshit?' The answer seemed to be because it was efficient and because, in a society beset by all kinds of problems, it may have seemed like a feasible necessity. So it becomes feasible, and the people take that leap."
End Quote.
Basically, the writer wanted this to be a tale of how and why ordinary Germans ended up convinced to hate Jews and line the streets throwing salutes. (A good message today too lets be honest). I just think based on this quote Lucas came to the wrong conclusion: efficiency had nothing to do with it. It was taking a country on its knees and giving them ''an other'' to hate for all of their problems. Which in this case wasn't too difficult as the Germans WERE being buggered over by the Allied nations in the Treaty of Versailles and the Jews did SEEM to have a lot of money as they tended to own the banks.
We used to argue whether Star Trek or Star Wars was better. Now we argue which one is worse.
While its outside of the story's "message", I'd like to know what level of technology the Ekos had prior to John Gill's takeover of the planet. We know that the Zeons were actually superior technology users and had a somewhat paternalistic relationship to the Ekos but are we talking 1930s, Victorian Era, or Medieval?
I mean, how much did John "uplift" them in the most horrible manner possible?
I had a similar question about "A Piece of the Action" because if you did take the 1920s to Medieval people, you can understand why they would want to imitate it and while some subtleties would be lost. After all, a Boss is not that dissimilar to a king.
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 7:03 pm
While its outside of the story's "message", I'd like to know what level of technology the Ekos had prior to John Gill's takeover of the planet. We know that the Zeons were actually superior technology users and had a somewhat paternalistic relationship to the Ekos but are we talking 1930s, Victorian Era, or Medieval?
I mean, how much did John "uplift" them in the most horrible manner possible?
I had a similar question about "A Piece of the Action" because if you did take the 1920s to Medieval people, you can understand why they would want to imitate it and while some subtleties would be lost. After all, a Boss is not that dissimilar to a king.
Ultimately John Gill is just one man. An historian at that, not a scientist or an engineer. Stands to reason therefore that they must have been at a 20th century level already.
After all, as many have noted with the whole ''don't leave your iPhone in the past'' story of time travel, it would have taken the greatest minds of the 19th century decades just to work out what plastic is let alone a microchip.
John Gill gave the Zeons an ideology. Nothing more. Which again fits into the intended story.
We used to argue whether Star Trek or Star Wars was better. Now we argue which one is worse.
