Lower deck episode 3?

[Formless One]

We've seen situations where the XO isn't a Commander before. Tilly is perhaps the most obvious parallel because she too was only ranked an Ensign when Saru made her XO. But Sisko was also given command of Defiant before he was even given the rank of Captain! His XO was Kira, a member of the Bajoran Militia, and held the rank of Major; traditionally that's equivalent to Lieutenant Commander by pay grade. Even after Worf enters the show he doesn't replace her as XO due to the politics between the Federation and Bajor, although during the war command of the Defiant would trade hands between Sisko, Worf, and Jadzia (depending on who was available and who was busy drafting plans with an admiral or general at the time).

I think part of the hangup is that Starfleet really isn't a military, even though it fights wars. I think it might be more appropriately compared to a militia instead. That might seem like splitting hairs, but its structure is subtly different than we're expecting. It has the military ranks, but not the military career path one might expect. Its pretty easy for an officer to switch departments, as shown by Rutherford casually doing so four times in a single episode, and while he only did it once, Worf also went from wearing a yellow security uniform to command red in order to join DS9 on a more permanent basis. He didn't change rank, but he certainly changed responsibilities dramatically in the process. A big emphasis is put on one's permanent record, certainly, but it looks like what they care about is the actions one took that lead to disciplinary action rather than the disciplinary action itself. Even the fact of getting demoted doesn't appear to necessarily be a punishment in all cases. In season 2, Boimler gets demoted from Lieutenant on the Titan back down to an Ensign on Cerritos as a result of his transporter clone accident, and the demotion seems to simply be a result of Cerritos not having any postings for a Lieutenant open.

Also weird is that Captains really can fire someone like Kirk threatened to do to Scotty that one time; its definitely a punishment since it ejects you from your current posting, but the guy Riker fired tried reapplying for a posting on Cerritos by asking Mariner and Boimler to write him letters of recommendation (perhaps a requirement for getting a new post under those circumstances). He got shot down, of course, but its another interesting distinction between how a military works and how Starfleet works. It kinda feels more like starships are run like franchised businesses, with a corporate structure that happens to use military ranks. The Captain is like the General Manager or local owner of the ship, except they have more to worry about than unhappy customers. Starfleet Command meanwhile is obviously Corporate HQ. This is at odds with how a military usually works, but then again it may make historic sense given the parallels between deep space missions and long voyages in the Age of Sail. The fact that no one is actually being paid also muddies comparison, as Mariner doesn't have to worry about being able to support her kids (if she had any) because she got bumped back to Ensign. Being an Ensign lacks prestige, but that's about the only downside. You can still have plenty of interesting duties, even be a major part of the command structure like Harry Kim or Tilly. You just can't boss people around as easily as a Lieutenant. So one has to ask, is it really all that bad to get demoted on a Federation Starship?

[CharlesPhipps]

To be fair, I consulted with some military friends and some actually do refer to a court martial or medical discharge as being fired.

[Madner Kami]

Rank isn't synonymous with function within a military or even most civilian organisations.

[cloudkitt]

Yeah, the "captain" of the Federation flagship Enterprise-D would in all likelihood actually be an Admiral, with a Captain as an XO.

[CharlesPhipps]

Its not really a flag ship with no other ships.

[Hero_Of_Shadows]

We've seen situations where the XO isn't a Commander before. Tilly is perhaps the most obvious parallel because she too was only ranked an Ensign when Saru made her XO. But Sisko was also given command of Defiant before he was even given the rank of Captain! His XO was Kira, a member of the Bajoran Militia, and held the rank of Major; traditionally that's equivalent to Lieutenant Commander by pay grade. Even after Worf enters the show he doesn't replace her as XO due to the politics between the Federation and Bajor, although during the war command of the Defiant would trade hands between Sisko, Worf, and Jadzia (depending on who was available and who was busy drafting plans with an admiral or general at the time).

I think part of the hangup is that Starfleet really isn't a military, even though it fights wars. I think it might be more appropriately compared to a militia instead. That might seem like splitting hairs, but its structure is subtly different than we're expecting. It has the military ranks, but not the military career path one might expect. Its pretty easy for an officer to switch departments, as shown by Rutherford casually doing so four times in a single episode, and while he only did it once, Worf also went from wearing a yellow security uniform to command red in order to join DS9 on a more permanent basis. He didn't change rank, but he certainly changed responsibilities dramatically in the process. A big emphasis is put on one's permanent record, certainly, but it looks like what they care about is the actions one took that lead to disciplinary action rather than the disciplinary action itself. Even the fact of getting demoted doesn't appear to necessarily be a punishment in all cases. In season 2, Boimler gets demoted from Lieutenant on the Titan back down to an Ensign on Cerritos as a result of his transporter clone accident, and the demotion seems to simply be a result of Cerritos not having any postings for a Lieutenant open.

Also weird is that Captains really can fire someone like Kirk threatened to do to Scotty that one time; its definitely a punishment since it ejects you from your current posting, but the guy Riker fired tried reapplying for a posting on Cerritos by asking Mariner and Boimler to write him letters of recommendation (perhaps a requirement for getting a new post under those circumstances). He got shot down, of course, but its another interesting distinction between how a military works and how Starfleet works. It kinda feels more like starships are run like franchised businesses, with a corporate structure that happens to use military ranks. The Captain is like the General Manager or local owner of the ship, except they have more to worry about than unhappy customers. Starfleet Command meanwhile is obviously Corporate HQ. This is at odds with how a military usually works, but then again it may make historic sense given the parallels between deep space missions and long voyages in the Age of Sail. The fact that no one is actually being paid also muddies comparison, as Mariner doesn't have to worry about being able to support her kids (if she had any) because she got bumped back to Ensign. Being an Ensign lacks prestige, but that's about the only downside. You can still have plenty of interesting duties, even be a major part of the command structure like Harry Kim or Tilly. You just can't boss people around as easily as a Lieutenant. So one has to ask, is it really all that bad to get demoted on a Federation Starship?

It always bothered me about Boimler transferring back, like I get why they did it the show at this stage is about being an ensign (I believe they will rank up eventually but as a group they've been hinting at it) and they needed Brad back while not making him an incompetent who couldn't handle the Titan but still it seems like they did him dirty lt. jr. grd. is literally just one rank above ensigns I can't think they didn't have "space" for one extra lt. jr. grd. and then just send him off on the same missions as the others.

It would have been a fun new dynamic Mariner often leads since she's among other ensigns and she has the most experience with Boimler an lt. jr. you'd have one person having the rank another person having more experience ... they'd have to both grow and compromise for the best solution instead of just going with whatever Mariner is pushing.

[Madner Kami]

I very much agree. Transporter-accident Boimler 1 gets the rank and stays on the Titan. Transporter-accident Boilmer 2 gets demoted and thrown off to the scrapheap-ship. Both did exactly the same things, yet one gets rewarded and the other gets shit upon.

[CharlesPhipps]

I very much agree. Transporter-accident Boimler 1 gets the rank and stays on the Titan. Transporter-accident Boilmer 2 gets demoted and thrown off to the scrapheap-ship. Both did exactly the same things, yet one gets rewarded and the other gets shit upon.

Boimler 2 volunteered!

[Hero_Of_Shadows]

I very much agree. Transporter-accident Boimler 1 gets the rank and stays on the Titan. Transporter-accident Boilmer 2 gets demoted and thrown off to the scrapheap-ship. Both did exactly the same things, yet one gets rewarded and the other gets shit upon.

Boimler 2 volunteered!

I've argued about this with other fans, and while I can't prove it definitively I think deep down Boimler before the incident did miss his friends on the Cerritos and was maybe regretting going to the Titan even if he could handle it and he did grow from it.

Thus I would argue that the Boimler that goes back and which we end up following through Season 2 is the "more true"/"more heroic" Boimler and on some level he stepped up since he did want to go back even if he didn't admit it.

After going back, Boimler yeah he kept mentioning how awesome the Titan was (annoying the hell out of Mariner) but for a man that just lost his dream job through no fault of his own he was quite obviously not bitter or depressed or etc which tells me he is happier on the Cerritos or more precisely with his friends.

[Madner Kami]

I'd rather argue that is done to keep the premise of the show intact, rather than showing the character's secret feelings. It is very clear, that Boimler "stepped forward" fully expecting that his counterpart would do the same (and not counting on him betrying himself) and not because he secretly wants to get back (though he certainly does miss his friends and maybe even Mariner, possibly because of Stockholme Syndrome). I'd even argue that, if he really wanted to get back onto the Cerritos, that it undermines the character as it shows him failing to develop and actually regress.