TNG - Homeward

[clearspira]

To see them reduced to the kind of stubborn self-righteousness was not only a regression to the dubious season 1/2 characterization that Picard had largely grown out of, it also was a disappointing sign that the PD dogmatism was going to be embraced even further, which Voyager and Enterprise bore out.

I disagree completely. The Prime Directive means no interference, period. If the Federation isn't going to play god, it's not going to play god - you can't pick and choose when interference is permissible and when it's unacceptable.

That race was doomed. It would have been doomed if the Federation didn't exist. So they get the destiny the universe gave them. It's not the Federation's place to determine which species live and which species die, or which tragedies a primitive species undergoes and which ones it doesn't.

The episode with the little girl with the subspace radio was complex: they'd inadvertently broken the Prime Directive already, they could intervene without letting the race know the Federation existed, and they erased the little girl's memory. Even then, it was a betrayal of the Federation's ideals because they couldn't bring themselves to make the hard decision.

The ''universe'' did not give them a ''destiny''. Because guess what? The universe is not a living thing and destiny and fate are bullshit concepts that are almost exclusively used by human beings to justify horrific or selfish acts.

[Linkara]

It says something when season 2 Picard was more open about saving people's lives despite the Prime Directive than season 7. Yeah, I've got to believe this episode had rewrites or heavy notes altering it - maybe from Berman because this kind of thinking about non-interference carried over into Voyager.

And TOS' looser Prime Directive IS better - a culture is not inherently worth salvaging or preserving, particularly if it's an oppressive one or if preserving it would mean dooming them. It's one thing to get involved in a war or a quagmire with a less-advanced civilization or the like, but situations like this? Bullcrap.

Also, dumb question, but doesn't the Enterprise have multiple holodecks? Hit 'em with the knockout gas as Chuck suggested during their regular sleep time, beam 'em into holodeck 2 or whatever, fix the first holodeck, then if the second one goes out, beam 'em back to the first same way.

[drewder]

I feel like the prime directive should be similar to the Agile manifesto where they list things that are preferred over other things while acknowledging that sometimes the other things are necessary too.
Like non-interference is preferred over interference
life is preferred over genocide
etc

[Nealithi]

To see them reduced to the kind of stubborn self-righteousness was not only a regression to the dubious season 1/2 characterization that Picard had largely grown out of, it also was a disappointing sign that the PD dogmatism was going to be embraced even further, which Voyager and Enterprise bore out.

I disagree completely. The Prime Directive means no interference, period. If the Federation isn't going to play god, it's not going to play god - you can't pick and choose when interference is permissible and when it's unacceptable.

That race was doomed. It would have been doomed if the Federation didn't exist. So they get the destiny the universe gave them. It's not the Federation's place to determine which species live and which species die, or which tragedies a primitive species undergoes and which ones it doesn't.

The episode with the little girl with the subspace radio was complex: they'd inadvertently broken the Prime Directive already, they could intervene without letting the race know the Federation existed, and they erased the little girl's memory. Even then, it was a betrayal of the Federation's ideals because they couldn't bring themselves to make the hard decision.

Bolded the part I wish to question. See this is a parallel to Riker's argument a while ago. "If there is some grand plan. Is it not the height of hubris to intervene?" Is it not the height of hubris to say "all of you are at the whim of destiny but not us"?
Pull the destiny card should not be just the Prime Directive then. Hey asteroid is heading to one of our colonies, oh well. Data make popcorn I want to watch when it hits.

I think the Prime Directive is cowardice because it has no rules. You can't interfere with a prewarp civilization. Oh but PD also blocks us from helping the Romulans or the Klingons. Buuut the good old Prime Directive does not apply to the Ba'ku because they used to have warp capability. So we are perfectly within our rights to get rid of them and destroy their planet. After all they may not be Federation members. But they have something we want. Oh wait these other planets are in Federation territory, but hey can't interfere.

That is the problem with the Prime Directive to me.

[Makeitstop]

It's very telling that so many episodes that present the prime directive as an absolute law which forbids intervening to save a doomed people from extinction, still end with the crew saving those people. Even as the show tells us how the morally superior option is to watch as innocent people die by the millions, they just can't help but let the crew cheat the dilemma and save the people anyway.

Could you imagine these same episodes if they didn't try to eat their cake while extolling us on the virtues of cake having? And without depersonalizing it, and just showing us a planet changing color and telling us a cold statistic about the number of deaths or leaving before the actual disaster happens. Imagine them showing us the individual people, letting us get acquainted with a world, its people, their barely established culture, and the all to relatable lives they lead. Then when the argument about saving them comes up, our heroes bravely choose to watch them all die despite being able to save some or all of them. And by the end of the episode, we watch as these innocent people cling to their loved ones and brace for the end as a death sweeps pointlessly across their world. Cut to Picard patting himself on the back for a job well done, and lecturing the guest star that tried to break the prime directive about how wrong it would have been to play god.

No wonder they like to cheat in these kind of episodes. Who would want to watch a show where they didn't? How could I possibly be invested in those characters after that?

I've got it, alternate ending to The Inner Light, Picard wakes up, and they find the world that launched the probe. It's not too late, people are still alive, and there's even a nearby planet which can easily sustain them for thousands of years, they'd just need to ferry the survivors over. And it turns out the probe was actually quite recent and many of the people Picard met personally in the vision are all there, struggling to survive as the conditions deteriorate. He sees a close up of a band of survivors, lead by a man he remembers raising as his own son, who has become a heroic figure inspiring people to have hope in their darkest hour. And as he looks at the view screen showing a people he knows intimately, having been deeply moved by their simple way of life and their determination to find joy and hope despite the approaching doom, captain Picard gives the order to leave, because fuck them, it's their fault for not inventing the warp drive.

Also, the bit about Paul Sorvino knocking up one of the locals is especially funny, given that Picard was willing to ignore the prime directive, ignore orders, and prevent medical advances that would have saved billions of lives when it was his girlfriend that needed their help, and she wasn't even pregnant. Never mind that he took the exact opposite position in Journey's end, that was different, they weren't smug white people, and none of them were milfs.

[pilight]

Also, dumb question, but doesn't the Enterprise have multiple holodecks? Hit 'em with the knockout gas as Chuck suggested during their regular sleep time, beam 'em into holodeck 2 or whatever, fix the first holodeck, then if the second one goes out, beam 'em back to the first same way.

Or just keep them unconscious the whole trip and have Nikolai tell them the storms completely rearranged the landscape when they reach their new home. They're already going to have to deal with all the new and different plants and animals they'll encounter on the new world.

[MerelyAFan]

As I noted on the video itself, what gets me about this episode is that given the strong focus is on Nikolai going rogue, you didn't even need this kind of awful story point to do it.

Imagine if Boraal II is not doomed to planetary destruction, but in light of recent treaties, is going to the Cardassian Union. Nikolai strongly protests this, noting that the latter has no formal Prime Directive and pointing to the recent history of the Occupation as what might happen to them. At best their culture would be disturbed, and at worst they could potentially find themselves enslaved no matter what the Cardassians say.

Picard sympathizes, but notes that any potential transportation would also disturb their culture just as much, and any significant moves in regard to the planet could risk conflict with the Cardassians when the treaty is already unsteady. Thus, when Nikolai does transport the group onboard the Enterprise Holodeck Picard does furiously say that his move may have much bigger consequences than just for the Boraalians.

Essentially the "Prime Directive states we must let them die" nonsense is discarded entirely with a less definitive fate for the native villagers; thus giving both sides fair beliefs. Picard would have a point in Rozhenko not seeing the big picture with what he did for people that possibly would have been ignored by the Cardassians while he can state that he couldn't take the chance of letting the people he's grown to love suffer the same fate as the Bajorans.

It gives the story more nuance and even fits into the franchise subplot about the Federation's "peace" with the Cardassians being a tricky thing to navigate.

[Madner Kami]

To see them reduced to the kind of stubborn self-righteousness was not only a regression to the dubious season 1/2 characterization that Picard had largely grown out of, it also was a disappointing sign that the PD dogmatism was going to be embraced even further, which Voyager and Enterprise bore out.

I disagree completely. The Prime Directive means no interference, period. If the Federation isn't going to play god, it's not going to play god - you can't pick and choose when interference is permissible and when it's unacceptable.

That race was doomed. It would have been doomed if the Federation didn't exist. So they get the destiny the universe gave them. It's not the Federation's place to determine which species live and which species die, or which tragedies a primitive species undergoes and which ones it doesn't.

The episode with the little girl with the subspace radio was complex: they'd inadvertently broken the Prime Directive already, they could intervene without letting the race know the Federation existed, and they erased the little girl's memory. Even then, it was a betrayal of the Federation's ideals because they couldn't bring themselves to make the hard decision.

If destiny is a thing, then the Federation was destined to be there and make a choice. In fact, if destiny is a thing, then everything that happened was destined to happen, so the Federation was literally destined to save those people.

[griffeytrek]

https://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/t265.php

In some ways, this episode is more infuriating to me than Dear Doctor. The latter was awful, and the self congratulations the story has at its reprehensible conclusion is absurd. But it was season 1 Enterprise, and Archer himself was so badly written in the first half of the series that it sadly doesn't feel all that out of character for his worldview.

TNG on the other hand had really developed the crew to being engaging and fairly likable people. To see them reduced to the kind of stubborn self-righteousness was not only a regression to the dubious season 1/2 characterization that Picard had largely grown out of, it also was a disappointing sign that the PD dogmatism was going to be embraced even further, which Voyager and Enterprise bore out.

Trek as a franchise wouldn't really bottom out till the early aughts, but stuff like this foreshadowed a lot of the problems future ST stories would suffer from.

This episode more than any other kind of unintentionally illustrated that the Humans of the Federation had not given up on Faith or Religion. They had simply shifted it to the Cult of the Prime Directive. They are not rational actors as is claimed. They are simply obeying the Magic Words from Above. "It is the Will of The Prime Directive These Poor Poor Savages must die. It is with a heavy heart we witness it unable to offer aid. Because our Master Forbids us."

[Sir Will]

you can't pick and choose when interference is permissible and when it's unacceptable.

Yes. Yes you can.

That race was doomed. It would have been doomed if the Federation didn't exist.

Yes. But the Federal does exist. And it's there and knows about the situation. So it can help.

The episode with the little girl with the subspace radio was complex: they'd inadvertently broken the Prime Directive already, they could intervene without letting the race know the Federation existed, and they erased the little girl's memory.

They intervened here without the race knowing the Federation exists.