VOY: Lineage

[CharlesPhipps]

Keylar is interesting in this context because she was the opposite of Torres in a lot of ways. She definitely had an affinity for Klingon culture overall, just no tolerance for whatever the Klingon equivalent of machismo is. Torres meanwhile has always seemed actively repulsed by Klingon culture generally, not just the parts that relate to her own experiences growing up.

But then maybe that means Keylar would be best positioned to help Torres find elements of it she does enjoy, and from there help her learn a more complete understanding of herself.

Notably, Keylar also intended to raise her son in the Federation. I think there's a hint that she made a choice for Alexander that Worf never realized or was in denial of.

Kind of depends which historian you believe: She was executed for not siring a male air, she was executed because Thomas Cromwell invented charges against her, or she actually was guilty of adultery, incest and/or treason.

Personally, I think all three may have truth in reality. By all accounts by Tudor standards she was a very opinionated and strong woman who certainly would have made her powerful enemies in the court, and given how sex with King Syphilis was the only thing securing her position, I wonder if she thought that trying to have sex with another man in order to try and produce a male heir for Henry may have seemed like a smart move. I somehow doubt that she was guilty of fornicating with her own brother though.

There's a bit more going on there as well with the fact what a colossal asshole Henry was. He was sleeping with her sister for much of their relationship and took to her again when Anne was pregnant. In addition to the son thing, it's very likely he just got bored of her.

Henry certainly murdered her with false charges but Henry wasn't exactly unknown to do that to his male associates (often friends for decades bordering on family): Wolsey, Thomas Moore, Cromwell himself, and others. I think Cromwell even wrote down somewhere that Henry was bitter and angry about executing Wolsey a few months later, which made him realize that his life hung by a thread to the king's whims.

[McAvoy]

Keylar is interesting in this context because she was the opposite of Torres in a lot of ways. She definitely had an affinity for Klingon culture overall, just no tolerance for whatever the Klingon equivalent of machismo is. Torres meanwhile has always seemed actively repulsed by Klingon culture generally, not just the parts that relate to her own experiences growing up.

But then maybe that means Keylar would be best positioned to help Torres find elements of it she does enjoy, and from there help her learn a more complete understanding of herself.

Notably, Keylar also intended to raise her son in the Federation. I think there's a hint that she made a choice for Alexander that Worf never realized or was in denial of.

Kind of depends which historian you believe: She was executed for not siring a male air, she was executed because Thomas Cromwell invented charges against her, or she actually was guilty of adultery, incest and/or treason.

Personally, I think all three may have truth in reality. By all accounts by Tudor standards she was a very opinionated and strong woman who certainly would have made her powerful enemies in the court, and given how sex with King Syphilis was the only thing securing her position, I wonder if she thought that trying to have sex with another man in order to try and produce a male heir for Henry may have seemed like a smart move. I somehow doubt that she was guilty of fornicating with her own brother though.

There's a bit more going on there as well with the fact what a colossal asshole Henry was. He was sleeping with her sister for much of their relationship and took to her again when Anne was pregnant. In addition to the son thing, it's very likely he just got bored of her.

Henry certainly murdered her with false charges but Henry wasn't exactly unknown to do that to his male associates (often friends for decades bordering on family): Wolsey, Thomas Moore, Cromwell himself, and others. I think Cromwell even wrote down somewhere that Henry was bitter and angry about executing Wolsey a few months later, which made him realize that his life hung by a thread to the king's whims.

I recall the same thing about Woolsey. I can't recall exactly the reason why Henry regretted it. My knowledge of him and that court is clouded by watching The Tudors.

I think if I remember right that he really did care for his first wife and mourned her death.

[Ranchoth]

So, ah...did they just write Torres' stunt off as Mommy Hormones and Freudian Childhood Trauma?

'Cause she did lobotomize/brainwash a fellow crewmember, make a lot of unauthorized overrides to block off sickbay that ended up getting Security involved, to attempt to have an unnecessary medical procedure performed on an offspring without the informed consent of the other parents—which involved genetic manipulation, which, in this era of Trek, was...(rolls dice) not only somewhat of a societal taboo, but potentially opens Torres up to actual criminal charges, AND could potentially seriously hinder her daughter's future career prospects, both in and out of Starfleet, depending on how much of a hardass the courts/how much the writers are on an Oppression Chic kick, that week.

I mean, all things considered—pregnant woman, AND she's their irreplaceable Chief Engineer—I'm not exactly expecting for Torres to get months in the brig, or drummed out to the shuttlebay for a taste o' the cat, but...did she at least get, like, a reprimand? Cut her holodeck privileges for a coupla weeks? Temporary reduction in (basically meaningless, field commission) rank?

Or are they honoring the TNG-era's New Age 1980s roots and making her informal "I'm sorry" the end of it?

[clearspira]

So, ah...did they just write Torres' stunt off as Mommy Hormones and Freudian Childhood Trauma?

'Cause she did lobotomize/brainwash a fellow crewmember, make a lot of unauthorized overrides to block off sickbay that ended up getting Security involved, to attempt to have an unnecessary medical procedure performed on an offspring without the informed consent of the other parents—which involved genetic manipulation, which, in this era of Trek, was...(rolls dice) not only somewhat of a societal taboo, but potentially opens Torres up to actual criminal charges, AND could potentially seriously hinder her daughter's future career prospects, both in and out of Starfleet, depending on how much of a hardass the courts/how much the writers are on an Oppression Chic kick, that week.

I mean, all things considered—pregnant woman, AND she's their irreplaceable Chief Engineer—I'm not exactly expecting for Torres to get months in the brig, or drummed out to the shuttlebay for a taste o' the cat, but...did she at least get, like, a reprimand? Cut her holodeck privileges for a coupla weeks? Temporary reduction in (basically meaningless, field commission) rank?

Or are they honoring the TNG-era's New Age 1980s roots and making her informal "I'm sorry" the end of it?

Even Kate Mulgrew thinks that Janeway was bipolar. Sometimes turning against the ship got you a stern talking to, sometimes it got you 30 days of solitary confinement (a punishment considered cruel and unusual by the UN). Sometimes having sex with an alien was applauded, sometimes it got you a blot on your permanent record.

[Madner Kami]

[quote=clearspira post_id=120301 time=1656281921 user_id=1779Sometimes having sex with an alien was applauded, sometimes it got you a blot on your permanent record.
[/quote]

That still remains as one of the wierdest things ever happening in Trek of all places. The multi-species space-UN producing some of the brightest people being offspring from multiple species and somehow there are rules against it? What? That's like: You can't be with that partner, because s/he doesn't share your hairstyle.

[FaxModem1]

So, ah...did they just write Torres' stunt off as Mommy Hormones and Freudian Childhood Trauma?

'Cause she did lobotomize/brainwash a fellow crewmember, make a lot of unauthorized overrides to block off sickbay that ended up getting Security involved, to attempt to have an unnecessary medical procedure performed on an offspring without the informed consent of the other parents—which involved genetic manipulation, which, in this era of Trek, was...(rolls dice) not only somewhat of a societal taboo, but potentially opens Torres up to actual criminal charges, AND could potentially seriously hinder her daughter's future career prospects, both in and out of Starfleet, depending on how much of a hardass the courts/how much the writers are on an Oppression Chic kick, that week.

I mean, all things considered—pregnant woman, AND she's their irreplaceable Chief Engineer—I'm not exactly expecting for Torres to get months in the brig, or drummed out to the shuttlebay for a taste o' the cat, but...did she at least get, like, a reprimand? Cut her holodeck privileges for a coupla weeks? Temporary reduction in (basically meaningless, field commission) rank?

Or are they honoring the TNG-era's New Age 1980s roots and making her informal "I'm sorry" the end of it?

No permanent damage was done to the child or the Doctor, so it was allowed to be off her record. And I can understand why no one wanted to really press the issue.

Fortunately for B'elanna, this is weeks before Author, Author, and holograms don't have legal rights(even after Author, Author). By the letter of the law, Torres sabotaged a piece of equipment, and fixed it before any permanent damage was done. It could be chalked up to faulty repairs due to no one wanting to make a case about it. And no one really wanted to press charges because it was clearly just someone in need of counseling due to a new situation and freaking out about it.

On a relationship basis, B'elanna made The Doctor her daughter's godfather, so she mended whatever damage was done to their friendship, as he was honored to he considered for the role. He could try and press charges if he wanted to, but legally he's a piece of software, a non-citizen and doesn't have a leg to stand on with the courts.

It wasn't repeatable or normal behavior for B'elanna, no one was harmed, and there have been larger negative consequences due to even The Doctor messing with his program (Darkling had him nearly kill a man when he was playing around with his program, for example, and he wasn't put in the brig), so there really wasn't any pressing need to get Starfleet JAG involved.

It definitely wasn't akin to trying to bomb a foreign government's life giving infrastructural facility like Tom Paris did in Thirty Days, which could be viewed as environmental terrorism.

I mean, sure, Janeway could have noted it in B'elanna's record, but what would be the point? There was no harm done to anybody, and everyone was okay after. No one outside the ship was affected at all, and no one inside the ship was really affected by it. You could chalk it up to a domestic dispute if you wanted to. Security could even have not filed an incident about this because the situation was resolved in minutes. Minor incidents like that are kind of overlooked all the time unless you have a real disciplinarian as a CO who wants to show a pattern of behavior about their subordinate.

Overall, I don't think it's as big a deal as you're making it out to be unless someone had an axe to grind against B'elanna and used this incident against her.

[clearspira]

I was thinking today that it is interesting to compare Torres to K'Ehleyr (Worf's girlfriend). Both half human, half Klingon; but the former very much chose the human route whereas the latter is far more proudly Klingon. Her name says a lot: she hasn't gone with ''K'Ehleyr Smith'' in the same way that Belanna went with ''Torres''. And yet she raised Alexander to be human not Klingon.

In a way you can kind of see what Worf saw in her. She has that Klingon element to her and yet, having a human parent, she would understand a lot of the culture conflicts that Worf suffers. Its just that he is far more extreme about it that she is as seen with the marriage oath. I doubt Worf would have fancied being with Torres much, beyond the physical anyway.

I'm just spitballing here but I wonder if K'Ehleyr being ''Klingon to a point'' has to do with Klingon sexism? No matter how proudly Klingon you may be, I fail to see why any woman would choose to be part of a society where there is a fifty foot thick glass ceiling above your head. Preserving her links to the Federation allows the best of both worlds.

[Ranchoth]

No permanent damage was done to the child or the Doctor, so it was allowed to be off her record. And I can understand why no one wanted to really press the issue.[...]No one outside the ship was affected at all, and no one inside the ship was really affected by it. You could chalk it up to a domestic dispute if you wanted to.

Kind of a late reply, but, ah...I'm really not sure this is the kind of legal precedent you'd want to establish.

Especially worse with the level of "permanent damage" that could be technically averted with 24th century medical technology. "Sure, Ensign Wildman was brutally assaulted in every way by her boyfriend, but...the Doctor just healed all the damage, and she doesn't actually remember most of the incident, anyway, so why make a deal out of it? You'd be damaging a promising young lieutenant's career—and we have the local image of Starfleet to uphold. No one really has to know..."

[McAvoy]

No permanent damage was done to the child or the Doctor, so it was allowed to be off her record. And I can understand why no one wanted to really press the issue.[...]No one outside the ship was affected at all, and no one inside the ship was really affected by it. You could chalk it up to a domestic dispute if you wanted to.

Kind of a late reply, but, ah...I'm really not sure this is the kind of legal precedent you'd want to establish.

Especially worse with the level of "permanent damage" that could be technically averted with 24th century medical technology. "Sure, Ensign Wildman was brutally assaulted in every way by her boyfriend, but...the Doctor just healed all the damage, and she doesn't actually remember most of the incident, anyway, so why make a deal out of it? You'd be damaging a promising young lieutenant's career—and we have the local image of Starfleet to uphold. No one really has to know..."

I agree. This is basically assaulting an officer. Doesn't matter if no damage was done.

Now even in today's military some things are brushed under the rug but for the most part you don't do certain things like what she did.

Voyager should have been more progressive in that respect. The Doctor became a sentient person. Any alteration without his approval should have dire consequences.

[FaxModem1]

No permanent damage was done to the child or the Doctor, so it was allowed to be off her record. And I can understand why no one wanted to really press the issue.[...]No one outside the ship was affected at all, and no one inside the ship was really affected by it. You could chalk it up to a domestic dispute if you wanted to.

Kind of a late reply, but, ah...I'm really not sure this is the kind of legal precedent you'd want to establish.

Especially worse with the level of "permanent damage" that could be technically averted with 24th century medical technology. "Sure, Ensign Wildman was brutally assaulted in every way by her boyfriend, but...the Doctor just healed all the damage, and she doesn't actually remember most of the incident, anyway, so why make a deal out of it? You'd be damaging a promising young lieutenant's career—and we have the local image of Starfleet to uphold. No one really has to know..."

Wow, I haven't been on this forum in months.

Again, should the Doctor have been put in the Brig for nearly killing a man in Darkling? This was while he was also sexually assaulting B'elanna and attempting to kidnap Kes. Because that's something that happened. Precedent is already kind of set there if the Doctor is a member of the crew. How about the time Paris kidnapped and raped Janeway in Threshold? The time Neelix hijacked the transporter to try and kill himself in Mortal Coil? Etc.

You either have to have every single thing the crew did over their 7 years reported and reviewed, or you cut them complete slack because they're trying to survive on their own in a high stress environment, or try and find some compromise between the two so that you can have a functioning starship crew.