Babylon 5: Deathwalker

[Durandal_1707]

^ Well, we know that's not true, because JMS explicitly said several times that the "sleeper agent" thing had been planned for Talia from the start. He'd actually originally planned to give it to Takashima, as a way to write her off at the end of Season 1, since Tomita didn't want to stay for more than one season (and allegedly, although I've never verified this myself, if you freeze one certain frame of "The Gathering", you can see Takashima's picture on an access card used by the villain). When Tomita didn't stay for the series at all, he moved it to Talia. The part that's speculation is what the original endgame was for that storyline with Talia, because I don't think that's ever been stated outright, but JMS has said that he had originally planned a romance between Talia and Ivanova which was cut short when Thompson suddenly wanted to leave, so we do know that it wasn't originally meant to end the way it did.

I'm pretty sure there's more than this, but here's what I could find in about a minute of searching:

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-13121
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-17185
http://www.fsl.cs.sunysb.edu/pipermail/ ... 02930.html

[Nevix]

Yes, but was Ja'dur wanting to make all the races of the B5 verse tear themselves apart via civil wars, or via genocidal campaigns against other races that are considered 'other'.

For the Minbari mindset, this is a choice between Minbari shall not kill Minbari, one of their greatest laws, and why they stopped killing Earth, and a choice to pick on some other, militarily weaker race, and harvest them for immortality juice, something that they would pretty much shrug at, due to Minbari xenophobia.

The Centauri, as we see with the war against the Narn, Drazi and the rest of the League, would be okay with option 2, as they're very in favor of wars of conquest, while their sense of duty to the state and the good of the Centauri Republic might make them find it contentious to, say, harvest the peasant folk for the survival of the nobility. They might still be willing to do so if such a choice was given before Cartagia.

Earth Alliance might see such things advocated by people like Clark and Bester, and decried by people like Sinclair and Franklin. Imagine a scene where Earth Central orders them to clear out Down Below, as a Senator's family all want to live forever. This, in contrast to, say, Earth invading the Drazi because of their relatively weaker military And wanting to make all their troops immortal.

That's what I'm asking. Are we seeing crazy wars of people harvesting, or Internal vampiric elites taking advantage of their most weak citizens of their own race?

Yep. I'm with the Vorlons on this one. Immortality by killing one person for each immortal (minimum) is rather severely reprehensible.

And "Yes" is my answer to your last question. All of that would happen. And worse. And then even worse. And it would probably end on a pile of ashes with paranoid immortals killing each other. If they're lucky.

[G-Man]

And it would probably end on a pile of ashes with paranoid immortals killing each other. If they're lucky.

So it would be a lot like another 90s hour-long speculative fiction drama that had a pilot called "The Gathering," then?

[Beastro]

I liked the look of the Dilgar and how well the feline look was done, something that I find usually isn't the case on shows.

Also didn't like the Vicar since we never see anything like him again in the series and made me feel like it was something ad hoc shoved into a show who had strength of continuity.

He and his services didn't seem to fit into the rest of the world they were in, unlike the Technomages who feel like they've always been a part of it despite what little we saw of them.

[Durandal_1707]

Yeah, but the only reason he never came up again was because Andrea Thompson left. Not a lot to be done about that, is there?

Now calling the character "VCR"—that was a groaner, even back then.

[Beastro]

Yeah, but the only reason he never came up again was because Andrea Thompson left. Not a lot to be done about that, is there?

Now calling the character "VCR"—that was a groaner, even back then.

It's not simply that, but any other cyberneticly augmented humans or aliens. If we saw others with little things, like replacement arms and such it would ground such a drastic thing as what he did with his brain.

[CareerKnight]

^ Well, we know that's not true, because JMS explicitly said several times that the "sleeper agent" thing had been planned for Talia from the start. He'd actually originally planned to give it to Takashima, as a way to write her off at the end of Season 1, since Tomita didn't want to stay for more than one season (and allegedly, although I've never verified this myself, if you freeze one certain frame of "The Gathering", you can see Takashima's picture on an access card used by the villain). When Tomita didn't stay for the series at all, he moved it to Talia. The part that's speculation is what the original endgame was for that storyline with Talia, because I don't think that's ever been stated outright, but JMS has said that he had originally planned a romance between Talia and Ivanova which was cut short when Thompson suddenly wanted to leave, so we do know that it wasn't originally meant to end the way it did.

That would be fairly convincing assuming you trust JMS and in this situation I'm not sure I do. If you read JMS speaks section for Divided Loyalties on the Lurker's Guide he acts like he had always planned to kill off Talia until someone brings up the interview with Andrea Thompson where it becomes clear that it was actually because she wanted out. I don't fault JMS for this as he comes off as very professional and doesn't lash out at all over it (its always good policy to avoid burning bridges) but the fact that he avoids it and comes up with alternative explanations means he needs to be taken with a grain of salt on this topic.

Basically you have three scenarios.
A. Basically what you said Durandal, that the sleep agent was planned from the start of season 1 and the only change was that it became permanent in the episode rather than leaving any hope she could be saved or being saved in the episode (that and it probably would have been some random telepath instead of Lyta since I don't think JMS would have had her come back to then be never seen again).
B. JMS went into season 2 knowing Andrea Thompson wasn't going to be staying and so built up to the sleep agent plot in that season (with stuff like the "I don't feel like a victim" just being a fortunate coincidence).
C. They came to an impasse at some point during season 2 and this was cobbled together (with his original plan for Takashima serving as inspiration).

Personally I lean towards B (though C is a possibility). The main reason I doubt A is correct is because of the events of Mind Wars. First I don't buy JMS' explanation that Ironheart was too distracted to notice the dormant personality, while I could accept that for most of the episode it doesn't really work after he has ascended since he has more than enough control to easily boost Talia's Psi rating and give her telekinesis without driving her insane. The second and even stronger reason is that there is no way in hell that the dormant personality wouldn't have contacted Psicorp at the first opportunity (which may have been as soon as the first night Talia went asleep after the change) and there is even less chance Psi Corp wouldn't have immediately got Talia transferred back to Earth to dissect err examine her. One of the top priorities of the Corp is to find a way to make telepaths stronger so there is no way they would pass it up on the chance that maybe at some point in the future she might stumble upon some conspiracy (heck they probably still would have gone with the chance of boosting telepaths over the conspiracy even if they knew she would find one). I say there is a chance for C given JMS' response to someone asking why Control was referred to as a he in Spider in the Web.
"You always refer to agents in the single "he" form to avoid giving away identities.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. "
There are two possible reasons for this obvious hasty explanation. Either he is covering for Talia being control was a change after the fact or that JMS didn't notice that the script referred to her as he until it was too late to do anything about it.

[G-Man]

That would be fairly convincing assuming you trust JMS and in this situation I'm not sure I do. If you read JMS speaks section for Divided Loyalties on the Lurker's Guide he acts like he had always planned to kill off Talia until someone brings up the interview with Andrea Thompson where it becomes clear that it was actually because she wanted out. I don't fault JMS for this as he comes off as very professional and doesn't lash out at all over it (its always good policy to avoid burning bridges) but the fact that he avoids it and comes up with alternative explanations means he needs to be taken with a grain of salt on this topic.

Well, given what we now know regarding his original explanations for Michael O'Hare leaving, it is clear that he is willing to lie in order to protect another person (very Minbari of him).

I recall Archengeia the Lorerunner suggesting that he may have also been less than accurate about what happened with Claudia Christian for similar reasons (basically, his theory was that Christian's "personal issues" may have basically interfered with her doing the show and JMS being willing to blame contract disputes may have been a way to avoid addressing this).

[PerrySimm]

So many ships like to get blown up at that jump gate. Couldn't happen to a nicer person.

This episode is really good when it's talking about facing extinction, and not so great in the Deus Ex Machina department - both the MacGuffin drug and the dull finale where the Vorlons pithy-comment their way out of prosecution for yet another horror. The prospect of a third in the form of VCR's crystal is perhaps even less satisfying.

[Archanubis]

... where the Vorlons pithy-comment their way out of prosecution for yet another horror.

When they call back to this episode in "Eyes," Garibaldi pretty much says that trying to protest Vorlon actions is pretty much useless, and there are very few people stupid enough to antagonize pretty much the most powerful known race in the galaxy.

Besides which, considering who Jha'dur was and that her immortality serum was the only thing keeping the League of Non-Aligned Worlds from joining Na'Toth in tearing her limb from limb... yeah, I'd say most of them went, "Well, guess we'll call it day. Sucks to be her."