Empire Strikes Back

[J!!]

A look at the last great hope of the galaxy who gets himself lost, crashes his speeder AND his ship, falls into a trap, and loses his hand. Words can't express our confidence in you.

[GandALF]

The "do or do not" thing is elaborated on an episode of Rebels, it has more to do with "try" implying that he'll give up because he doesn't believe he can succeed.

Also Yoda doesn't demand that that Luke sacrifice Han and Leia, Obi-Wan straight up says "you don't that" they'll die. Vader uses Luke's fear to draw him out, that's what the torture is for, ("didn't even ask any questions"). Luke's takes a step to the dark side the moment he leaves Dagobah because he let his fear rule him.

I know I harp on about this, but this is how ESB demostrates the disconnect between Kotor and the films.

In ESB his choices are:

light side: act out of reason and stay and train with Yoda

dark side: act out of fear and attempt a rescue (and fall into Vader's trap)

However, in Kotor it would be:

light side: stay and train with Yoda

dark side: place puppy in wood chipper

If Luke hadn't gone to Cloud City Lando would still have freed Leia and Chewie, Boba Fett would have still taken Han, but Luke would still have his hand and not be traumatised by the revelation.

[BunBun299]

My second favorite Star Wars movie.

Gotta agree on most of the special edition complaints. Things which merely enhance the visuals work great. Stuff that altered how things happen, like the conversation with the Emperor, hurt it. I think all three Special Editions had at least one completely none headed alteration that hurt them. In ANH, the scene with Greedo. In ESB, the scene with the Emperor, which would have been fine if they'd left the dialog alone. And in RotJ, the musical number in Jabba's palace. Beyond that, I actually like the Special Editions.

Cynical thing I heard about them, though. Someone suggested that Lucas changed each movie just enough so that he could take his ex-wife's name off of them.

[bronnt]

I know I harp on about this, but this is how ESB demostrates the disconnect between Kotor and the films.

In ESB his choices are:

light side: act out of reason and stay and train with Yoda

dark side: act out of fear and attempt a rescue (and fall into Vader's trap)

However, in Kotor it would be:

light side: stay and train with Yoda

dark side: place puppy in wood chipper

If Luke hadn't gone to Cloud City Lando would still have freed Leia and Chewie, Boba Fett would have still taken Han, but Luke would still have his hand and not be traumatised by the revelation.

To be fair, ESB does this better than anything else in the Star Wars universe. The prequels give us unsatisfying light side/dark side dilemmas such as: "Stop feeling bad about people dying (light side) or go into a temple and murder children (dark side)."

[Tanan]

The rant about the changes to Cloud City, especially how Lucas ruined the pacing of the escape sequence, summed up my thoughts exactly and I'm always surprised it almost never gets mentioned when people talk about the bad changes in the special editions.

[BunBun299]

The "do or do not" thing is elaborated on an episode of Rebels, it has more to do with "try" implying that he'll give up because he doesn't believe he can succeed.

Also Yoda doesn't demand that that Luke sacrifice Han and Leia, Obi-Wan straight up says "you don't that" they'll die. Vader uses Luke's fear to draw him out, that's what the torture is for, ("didn't even ask any questions"). Luke's takes a step to the dark side the moment he leaves Dagobah because he let his fear rule him.

I know I harp on about this, but this is how ESB demostrates the disconnect between Kotor and the films.

In ESB his choices are:

light side: act out of reason and stay and train with Yoda

dark side: act out of fear and attempt a rescue (and fall into Vader's trap)

However, in Kotor it would be:

light side: stay and train with Yoda

dark side: place puppy in wood chipper

If Luke hadn't gone to Cloud City Lando would still have freed Leia and Chewie, Boba Fett would have still taken Han, but Luke would still have his hand and not be traumatised by the revelation.

Another argument I heard, if Luke had not left Dagoba to rescue the others, he never would have left. This was the call to adventure. If he ignored it, he'd have stayed until at least Yoda died, and perhaps indefinitely after. He'd fall into the same stagnation that doomed all the Jedi that game before him. And in all likelihood, Vader and the Emperor would have crushed the rebelion without him.

Leaving then may not have been smart according to the wisdom of his mentors. But they already lost. It was time for action.

[Winter]

In regards to the Wampa scene in the special edition I do agree that it hinders the overall tension of the scene as it makes it less scary then just hearing the monster slowly approaching but I for one love how the Wampa looks. The costume for the monster is fantastic, I mean it's every bit as good as Chewie or Hell any of the costumes in the OT. However, I do get why fans don't like seeing the Wampa for most of the scene but I do think there could have been a compromise, only show the monster after it's arm is cut off by Luke.

That way it would have been like the reveal of the Shark in Jaws, this is a monster we only see briefly in movie and after Luke cuts off it's arm all we see is him running away from it. Showing it for the few seconds of it screaming in anger and pain could, in my opinion, add to the horror because we only see it for a second or two which just like the quick look at the Shark in Jaws when we finally see it.

Now we see what Luke sees and we fully understand why the Hell he gets the Hell out of there when he does. This way you get the best of both worlds, you get the Nothing is Scarier by how little you see the monster and a quick Jump Scare when you finally, and briefly, see the monster instead of never seeing it. Someone needs to run a experiment, show three different people who have never seen Star Wars three different version of this scene. The original, the Special Editions and the version I just talked about and see how each one reacts to each scene.

[bronnt]

Another argument I heard, if Luke had not left Dagoba to rescue the others, he never would have left. This was the call to adventure. If he ignored it, he'd have stayed until at least Yoda died, and perhaps indefinitely after. He'd fall into the same stagnation that doomed all the Jedi that game before him. And in all likelihood, Vader and the Emperor would have crushed the rebelion without him.

Leaving then may not have been smart according to the wisdom of his mentors. But they already lost. It was time for action.

That certainly seems at odds with what happens in the film. Luke nearly fails, and nearly dies, and has to delay his friends' escape by making them come back and pick him up. They avoided disaster by the narrowest margin, and the ease with which Vader toyed with him demonstrated how incomplete Luke's training was. It's all there in the visuals.

The biggest positive thing he did was to bring R2D2 along with him, who helped his friends by opening a locked door and then repairing the hyperdrive, and it's possible those things would have worked themselves out if his friends hadn't needed to double-back and rescue Luke.

If you look at this with the prequels in mind, then yes, you can see the bumbling incompetence and stagnation of the Jedi Order, but it's why I like to take the originals on their own merit. Those films actually work better you mentally write out the prequels because you can then pretend the Jedi Order was one of the last beacons of hope in a chaotic galaxy where the Republic was becoming an Empire, until Vader betrayed them and started hunting them down. Instead, watching them, you're left wondering why we should be rooting for the hypocritical brainwashing cult with its black-and-white morality and incompetent leadership.

EDIT: Also, Luke's "call to adventure" came in the first film. It took that to get him off the planet. In this story, he's already being proactive to the point of impatience. He's so eager to get on with doing stuff that he's acting petulant and frustrated with the little green man he just met. The film demonstrates his impatience as a hindrance, not an asset, and it sets up his bad decision before he ever makes it. It's really good storytelling.

[BunBun299]

And if R2-D2 had not been present to repair the Hyperdrive, the escape would have lasted about 5 minutes before they were recaptured. If Luke had stayed, he maybe would have left in time to maybe train Rey so she could save the galaxy.

[Seaward]

I have to admit, I'm somewhat amused at how Chuck's own reading of the story contrasts a couple of things that were put forth by the EU. Or more specifically by Timothy Zahn, who I think a lot of people, including myself, put forth as the best of the authors to contribute to it.

First, the idea that Luke's advancement in the Force is purely a result of his own introspection and he hasn't seen Obi-Wan in spirit form before, nor heard from him since the Battle of Yavin. At least in Allegiance, set not long after the first film, Zahn has Obi-Wan taking up a disembodied mentor position, giving Luke little hints and lessons throughout the story.

Second, Vader's 'temper tantrums', something Zahn ascribed to the character when contrasting Vader with Thrawn; the idea that he would execute officers for any failure, when Chuck clearly reads Vader's actions as not being all that dissimilar from Thrawns. He won't choke out an officer just for failing, but for repeated failures or failing by being stupid.