Dragon Age II: EA boogaloo

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MetalixK
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Re: Dragon Age II: EA boogaloo

Post by MetalixK »

Winter wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:40 am One point that has always bugged me with Elthina is how arrogant she acts in her last scene if you bought the Exiled Prince DLC. She is told by Hawke that the Divine wants her out of Kirkwall as this powder keg dressed as a city is about to go off and her being their will only make the situation worse.

Elthina then just brushes this off and acts rather smug and ignoring a direct order from her boss. Now her reason for staying does actually make sense as she will not abound her "flock" but the way she says makes it seem like she has her head in the clouds and if she just ignores the problem it will go away. She also acts the same way when Hawke asks her to help with the Templars to help at least defuse the problem a little bit. Her response, she says that the Templars and Mages need to learn compromise without ever clarifying how the two are suppose to compromise.

It's weird, some times she's written very well and you can see why she is seen as one of the few competent leaders in Kirkwall only for her to start acting all high and mighty towards the games final act. This is likely another issue from the games rushed development, had DA2 been given more time it's likely that Elthina would have been the reasonable authority figure throughout the game and her tendency to act rather smug would have been toned down or removed altogether.
That Tumblr I posted to had an earlier post on Elthina theorizing that Elthina was more of a political rival to the Divine than she let's on. Danged if I can find the post though, so I'll have to explain it as best as I can.

Okay, during Act 2 of the game, the position of Divine becomes vacant and a ton of people are viying for the position. Remember, the Chantry is basically the Catholic Church in this world, so this is essentially a game of hardcore political maneuvering.

Now, Elthina is in a rather interesting position here. Kirkwall currently has a bunch of heretics squatting in it, stirring up trouble just by being there, and her own people throwing fuel on the fire until the whole thing just explodes. Imagine what kind of clout Elthina could've had here. Rampaging hordes of Giant Ox Men, rampaging throughout the city, only to be stopped by the Templars that Elthina was ultimately in charge of. That probably would've solidified her as a shoe in for the spot.

Instead though, Hawke did it, and Justinia got the spot. But as ANYONE who knows the History of the Catholic Chruch can tell you, losing the sspot of Pope does not automatically mean you'll never get it later should anything "untoward" happen to the person who got in before you.

Thus, Justinia's invitation could be less her trying to get a Divine Mother the heck out of dodge, as much as it is making sure one of their biggest rivals is withing m's reeach. Even with the loss, Elthina still has no small amount of political clout and reasources at her fingertips. She has Sebastian who is now the only heir of Starkhaven (Mind you, I doubt she would've had anything to do with that. While I don't doubt she's a manipulative lady where Seb is concerned, I'm pretty certain that's more of a "best case" plan than anything.), and she has Meridith as acting leader of Kirkwall. A lot has been done with less clout.

Granted, that all relies on the writers having a fantastic level of skill and subtlety, and given the writing in this part of the game I very much doubt that's the case.
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Re: Dragon Age II: EA boogaloo

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Robovski wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:05 am Still not crying a river for the mages over the peasantry, who we do very little for in general in the game. But that's the framework we have here, Templars vs Mages and the Other Elites. Poor people don't have power or money and are lucky to get a job in a mine where they get eaten by Dragonlings.
I think that concern for the unwashed masses can coexist with sympathy for people who are ritualistically tossed into a death match ring unarmed with a fricking demon. Honestly, the harrowing to me is a bigger issue than the "trapped in the tower" aspect. In terms of senseless cruelty it's on par with human sacrifice, except that in Dragon Age sometimes human sacrifice can be practical/useful.
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Re: Dragon Age II: EA boogaloo

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GloatingSwine wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:28 pm Also, established reviewers, both at the level of the publication and the individual, have something at stake. Their professional reputation.
...
If an established reviewer is an axe grinding shill, or a publication gets caught snuggling too closely in bed with a publisher, their professional reputation can be damaged and that can affect their hirability and profitability. (See: Gamespot. Oh wait....)
I will have to call bull on that. After the Cuphead review it was discovered that several of Dean Takahashi's reviews were suffering from the same ineptitude. Reviews spanning several years. After the Cuphead tutorial review exploded on the internet... he's still lead games writer for GamesBeat. What has he lost? nothing. What has GamesBeat lost? nothing. There were no major advertisers pulling ads from VentureBeat or GamesBeat, no major boycott of the site. They lost nothing because they are small. But they are still on google, still publish easy to find reviews for people trying to decide if they're going to buy a game or not.

To err might be human but his bosses at VentureBeat must be literal gods to still keep him employed there. I'm sorry, but to assume there are any repercussions for games journalists that don't do their job right is rather absurd. Allegations of sexual misconduct will get you fired or forced to quit from that industry on the spot - if they're made public, sigh - but actually doing your job badly? being caught "in bed" with the publishers of AAA games (no GG reference, that's just the expression)? your job will be perfectly fine.

You're whole argument boils down to the fallacious argument from authority. Just because they are established reviewers doesn't mean they are trustworthy. Especially in the gaming industry were people bad at certain genres regularly review games they are not good at and complain about their high difficulty. Especially in an industry were you don't get fired for colluding with the publishers of your product. Especially in an industry were publishers will rent resorts for a weekend or a week and fly games journalist from all over the world to play their game in a highly curated and overall pleasant environment. Especially in an industry were AAA publishers will blacklist games journalists that say bad things about them or their products and thus make their job harder - putting them in a literal carrot and stick scenario.

Hell, even user reviews aren't all that great of a meter since we know publishers have used dummy accounts to leave perfect scores on sites like steam and metacritic. Users have only their free time to lose by leaving a bad score. Established games reviewers that leave negative reviews risk losing their lucrative relationships with the industry and in some cases acquaintances and friends that work on the other side of the equation.
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MetalixK
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Re: Dragon Age II: EA boogaloo

Post by MetalixK »

AlucardNoir wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:38 am
GloatingSwine wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:28 pm Also, established reviewers, both at the level of the publication and the individual, have something at stake. Their professional reputation.
...
If an established reviewer is an axe grinding shill, or a publication gets caught snuggling too closely in bed with a publisher, their professional reputation can be damaged and that can affect their hirability and profitability. (See: Gamespot. Oh wait....)
I will have to call bull on that. After the Cuphead review it was discovered that several of Dean Takahashi's reviews were suffering from the same ineptitude. Reviews spanning several years. After the Cuphead tutorial review exploded on the internet... he's still lead games writer for GamesBeat. What has he lost? nothing. What has GamesBeat lost? nothing. There were no major advertisers pulling ads from VentureBeat or GamesBeat, no major boycott of the site. They lost nothing because they are small. But they are still on google, still publish easy to find reviews for people trying to decide if they're going to buy a game or not.

To err might be human but his bosses at VentureBeat must be literal gods to still keep him employed there. I'm sorry, but to assume there are any repercussions for games journalists that don't do their job right is rather absurd. Allegations of sexual misconduct will get you fired or forced to quit from that industry on the spot - if they're made public, sigh - but actually doing your job badly? being caught "in bed" with the publishers of AAA games (no GG reference, that's just the expression)? your job will be perfectly fine.
Funny you should mention good ol' Dean. You know how ME2 is rather DRASTICALLY different from ME1? Dean's partially responsible for that, at least according to his own Twitter.

Yes, the guy who couldn't figure out leveling up characters in an RPG was kept in mind when developing the sequel. I'd call that appealing to the lowest common denominator, but given Dean's skill I think it's safe to say even the LCD consider him a scrub.
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Re: Dragon Age II: EA boogaloo

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Some people, not me mind you, just ... some people might say you were making my point for me.
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Re: Dragon Age II: EA boogaloo

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Robovski wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:05 am Still not crying a river for the mages over the peasantry, who we do very little for in general in the game. But that's the framework we have here, Templars vs Mages and the Other Elites. Poor people don't have power or money and are lucky to get a job in a mine where they get eaten by Dragonlings.
That's pretty much inherent with medieval fantasy, especially RPGs. The whole thing that makes it so easy to romanticize is that the poor are being quietly exploited in the background somewhere, allowing the story to focus on people who don't have to do anything as crass as working for a living. You don't think about how the economy works, you don't think about the widows and orphans of the faceless guards the heroes kill, and you definitely don't question that their entire income comes from looting the corpses of people they've killed and graves they've defiled.
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Re: Dragon Age II: EA boogaloo

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I think of Grand Cleric Elthina as basically someone who is perfectly confident as a moderate Centrist Chantry Cleric who is probably on a similar moral stance as Cassandra, which makes her someone incredibly frustrating for the extremists on both sides (which might as well be the tagline for the game).

She also has a serious problem which makes her a potential powderkeg and problem for the Chantry, to quote Yes Minister, in that she believes in God. Thats automatically enough to get you disqualified from most political games. Elthina encourages Sebastian to give up revenge NOT because it would benefit Kirkwall, the Chantry, or stabilize the region--she does it because she believes revenge is wrong.

I mean, in Orlais, that's just INSANE.

Who does that?

Honestly, I think people Elthina is probably why the Chantry is able to hold the mages for as long as they've got. She's fine with a Gilded Cage for Mages and most mages are fine with that themselves. "Freedom" is a very attractive prospect except for the fact most mages wouldn't be free outside of the Circles because 99% of the population isn't free. The Templars are much more hardline than the Chantry because, 1. It's their job and 2. Because lyrium induces paranoia because it's basically meth.

The Chantry also has a vested interest in mages being reasonably comfortable with the Chantry because mages are the only reason we're all not speaking Qunari. The Qunari's possession of gunpower means the Knights are utterly fucked unless the mages bring down the wrath of the spirits.

Elthina also wants to stay in Kirkwall as a show of solidarity and strength--not quite realizing that it also makes her a wonderfully symbolic target.

Re: Reviews

I created a review site with over 1000 reviews because I got sick of reading "legitimate" review sites that just talked at length about technical details and never the two things I cared about most.

1. Is the story good?
2. Is it FUN.
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Re: Dragon Age II: EA boogaloo

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mathewgsmith wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:48 amThat's pretty much inherent with medieval fantasy, especially RPGs. The whole thing that makes it so easy to romanticize is that the poor are being quietly exploited in the background somewhere, allowing the story to focus on people who don't have to do anything as crass as working for a living. You don't think about how the economy works, you don't think about the widows and orphans of the faceless guards the heroes kill, and you definitely don't question that their entire income comes from looting the corpses of people they've killed and graves they've defiled.
Eh, there's a good deal more peasant perspective in Dragon Age than most fantasy games I play. After all, you can be a Casteless Dwarf and a City Elf--both of whom are peasants. Dragon Age 2 doesn't work in this because Hawke becomes a noble but even he has a peasant background.

As for the Mages? They're slaves and the peasants want to burn them alive.

I'm not sure why we're supposed to be on the peasants side in that request.
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Re: Dragon Age II: EA boogaloo

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CharlesPhipps wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:38 pm

As for the Mages? They're slaves and the peasants want to burn them alive.
It's not slavery, the circles are micronations run by mages for mages, the Templars are intended to be border guards. The Chantry didn't create the circle system either, it started in early Tevinter as societies mages willingly created and joined, the Chantry just made them mandatory.

It's not that different from the system in Harry Potter it's just that the muggles are aware of it and implemented security measures.
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Re: Dragon Age II: EA boogaloo

Post by AlucardNoir »

GandALF wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:39 pm
CharlesPhipps wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:38 pm

As for the Mages? They're slaves and the peasants want to burn them alive.
It's not slavery, the circles are micronations run by mages for mages, the Templars are intended to be border guards. The Chantry didn't create the circle system either, it started in early Tevinter as societies mages willingly created and joined, the Chantry just made them mandatory.

It's not that different from the system in Harry Potter it's just that the muggles are aware of it and implemented security measures.
Well, you are technically right... then again, serfdom didn't start by the force enslavement of poor people by the rich landowning elite either and if memory serves it ended up being abused. The result - again, if memory serves - ended up being a large number of serf revolts and in the 18th and 19th centuries many, many revolts, revolutions and rebellions with the explicit aim of abolishing serfdom. Rebellions, revolts, and revolutions that usually failed, serfdom being abolished by lawmakers when it was no longer economically viable and not when the people rebelled against it's abuses.

@CharlesPhipps care to share the site with us? you seem to be someone that knows his way around words.
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