Oh boy, stepping into a landmine here, but... well, as far as I know, SF Debris never brought up Sisko's mother in the final arc beyond... well, he never mentioned the most questionable aspect of the final arc. Namely, Sisko learning that he's a rape baby, and then accepting wisdom and guidance from her. I'd kindly tell her to go fuck off. I mean... even Sisko in the episode this was revealed in (forget the name) called her out, and it was revealed he had wished for another answer. Reason this wasn't touched on again was likely due to the hectic schedule of the final arc, but I've always been curious what Chuck's thoughts would be that Sisko is a rape baby, given he has a wife and children of his own?
Oh, and don't try to argue that Sisko is not a rape baby. He confirmed within the vision that's why she left poor Joe Sisko, another victim to the Prophets' machinations. That the real her had never loved him. So... yeah, freaky all the way around. Seriously, HOW THE HELL did the writers think that was a good idea?!
SF Debris's thoughts on Sisko's real mother?
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Yukaphile
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SF Debris's thoughts on Sisko's real mother?
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
Re: SF Debris's thoughts on Sisko's real mother?
Everything related to the Prophets went to hell in the final season. Everything.
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Yukaphile
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Re: SF Debris's thoughts on Sisko's real mother?
It seems incompetently handled, tbh. And from such a great creative team otherwise. Series fatigue?
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
Re: SF Debris's thoughts on Sisko's real mother?
I thought he did comment on him being a child of rape, though I could be remembering wrong.
Really, they should have just said that Sisko was adopted. Joseph and his wife met Sarah, who was dying. They adopted Ben soon after he was born. Sarah is revealed to be an actual prophet, not a possessed woman. She loved Ben, but wasn’t allowed to raise him, so she faked her own death. The reason Ben was never told the truth was because Sarah implied that little baby Ben would be in danger if the wrong people discover he was adopted.
Really, they should have just said that Sisko was adopted. Joseph and his wife met Sarah, who was dying. They adopted Ben soon after he was born. Sarah is revealed to be an actual prophet, not a possessed woman. She loved Ben, but wasn’t allowed to raise him, so she faked her own death. The reason Ben was never told the truth was because Sarah implied that little baby Ben would be in danger if the wrong people discover he was adopted.
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Yukaphile
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Re: SF Debris's thoughts on Sisko's real mother?
That would have been a better alternative. Hell, anything would have been a better alternative!
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
Re: SF Debris's thoughts on Sisko's real mother?
To be honest, I don't see what his divine birth adds to the story or the character. It doesn't matter for the finale either, so it's not like they scrambled to add something they knew they'd need by the end. It also doesn't contribute anything to him already being Emissary, which was sufficiently explained and justified many years earlier.
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Yukaphile
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Re: SF Debris's thoughts on Sisko's real mother?
Well, let's look at it this way. What does, say, adding the story of Moses do to further Superman's story? In many cases, it has led to truly epic interpretations where he is here to lead by example and let his leadership inspire us to save the Earth, as he learns more about his origins and incorporates that into his experiences on Earth. If pulled off correctly, that makes him a very compelling character. The problem here is not that it inherently adds nothing. It's that they didn't think this through, have a long-term goal in mind, so in effect, it's meaningless. More of "things happening!" than something meant to serve the story and his character. Which is odd given how they made sure not to have Odo suffer a season-long arc of being alienated from the others after he sided with the Female Changeling in the Dominion War arc. This honestly feels like the same happened here. One of the actors objected, so just slap something last minute onto the pages, and hey, the final arc has kicked in, and we're rushing, we gotta keep everything consistent, there are some things bound to get overlooked.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
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SuccubusYuri
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Re: SF Debris's thoughts on Sisko's real mother?
I believe OP is correct that Chuck has never gone into a real deconstruction of the introduction of Sarah, I think that would come up if we ever get to Image in the Sand, though he is pretty clear it is a definitive line, coming back to back with the Pa'Wraiths not as a diametrically opposed force (like when it possessed Jake) but as literal devils, that it waters down the Prophets into a Judaeo-Christian mold of what a god should be.
Personally I can see it MAYBE working, if the purpose of the Emissary was to bring the Prophets "closer" to Bajor, by tugging them, metaphorically speaking, towards the corporeal realm so the Prophets could better understand their children. But this idea would, A) have come out of nowhere, it didn't seem built up at all. The closest is "The Reckoning" and it could, possibly, be retconned into having always been the plan? But that would require a very deft touch. B) It would have to abandon the outright messianic birth. It should have been more akin to the Bad Wolf entity, as beings not held by time, Sisko creates Sarah, by relationship or unlocking some ancient city, whatever, but the cause should have come after effect, it would have at least been consistent with the prior depictions.
You could Fridge Logic that explanation, but it was not communicated at all if it was indeed the plan.
Personally I can see it MAYBE working, if the purpose of the Emissary was to bring the Prophets "closer" to Bajor, by tugging them, metaphorically speaking, towards the corporeal realm so the Prophets could better understand their children. But this idea would, A) have come out of nowhere, it didn't seem built up at all. The closest is "The Reckoning" and it could, possibly, be retconned into having always been the plan? But that would require a very deft touch. B) It would have to abandon the outright messianic birth. It should have been more akin to the Bad Wolf entity, as beings not held by time, Sisko creates Sarah, by relationship or unlocking some ancient city, whatever, but the cause should have come after effect, it would have at least been consistent with the prior depictions.
You could Fridge Logic that explanation, but it was not communicated at all if it was indeed the plan.
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Yukaphile
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Re: SF Debris's thoughts on Sisko's real mother?
Bad execution. So that as presented, Sisko learns he's a rape baby, and never comments on it except for a few seconds. I think that's the kind of thing that would seriously fuck you up and get you to question if the gods you worship are right after all. If I'd learned my mother had no control when I was conceived and born, well, I'd hate God more than I already do if he was to blame. Hell, wouldn't that be a twist? Sisko loses his faith in the Prophets as the war grounds out, and he rejects them. Alas, didn't happen. And here's something else to address. When Sisko meets with the Prophet who takes on Sarah's image, I always wondered... why take on her image? That's not you, that's the poor woman you used. Yet they treat this as if the two had always mutually coexisted, when... the season intro made it clear she had no control, and the Prophet confirmed it. So again, that points to mind control rape similar to what Crusher went through in "Sub Rosa." I do have to wonder if the writers had intended to follow up on this, never did, but then due to the hectic pace of the end of the series, just assumed they had.
@SuccubusYuri You know, now I'm digging this idea that Sisko awakens Sarah, who then goes back in time and has Sisko, similar to how he met them, and then they brought Akorem Laan into the future later for him.
@SuccubusYuri You know, now I'm digging this idea that Sisko awakens Sarah, who then goes back in time and has Sisko, similar to how he met them, and then they brought Akorem Laan into the future later for him.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
Re: SF Debris's thoughts on Sisko's real mother?
The Prophets don't even understand how linear time works; I can't imagine their understanding of what humans do and do not like being done with their bodies is much better.
