Is Chuck wrong about Neelix?

[Eishtmo]

Star Trek Online had Neelix. He wasn't a complete shithead. In fact, I didn't have a problem with him at all. He shows up 4 or 5 times, and he's only really the focus once, the first time you run into him.

So he CAN be written well, but Voyager writers didn't get that. So he failed as a character.

[Yukaphile]

... does... does Ethan Phillips voice him as well? No, probably a stupid question, he voiced characters on something as prestigious as KOTOR 1!

[SuccubusYuri]

I mean, Chuck has always said when Phillips was let off the stupid-leash he really makes Neelix worth watching, so ultimately I don't think your proposition is at all different from what has been said in the past.

[Eishtmo]

... does... does Ethan Phillips voice him as well? No, probably a stupid question, he voiced characters on something as prestigious as KOTOR 1!

Yes, yes he did.

[RobbyB1982]

Ahmed Best certainly didn't deserve death threats and the treatment he got for playing Jar Jar, anymore than the women in Last Jedi have been super harassed by awful toxic fandom.

But the character he played was awful, the choice to go with *that* voice was his, and it was the right move to get rid of that character rather than have him continue to weigh down everything else. He's even had follow up appearances in things like Clone Wars where a different team of writers, and the same actor playing the same character now with years of hindsight, could have taken a stab at redeeming him or toning him down some, and they didn't. (And the fanfic of him being a secret sith putting on an act is clearly never going to happen.)

Mind you, in terms of character arc, actual defining traits, and being memorable and having something to prove, on the written page Jar Jar was the only good *character* in episode 1, (far better than the drying paint of Qui Gon or Padme) but on screen he was unfortunately incredibly annoying. Fan edits where they make his voice alien and edit out the slapstick he's far far better even with the same footage.

Getting rid of Jar Jar was absolutely the right choice. And getting rid of Neelix would have been good too... instead they got rid of Kes. (They also were super close to getting rid of Harry until he won a sexiest person award... and if they weren't going to reinvent him they should have.)

Its a story. It needs to do what is best for the show as a whole, for all the characters. No franchise should be beholden to one actor at the cost of everything else... characters come and go, it's part of the job.

For an opposite example, Jonny Depp was the surprise break out star character in Pirate of the Carribean. People loved him and wanted more of him. ANd so... the next movies gave more. And made us sick of him. Because they insisted on staying with the actor, against the health of the franchise.

Heck, Mad Max recast its title character and it fine. As does James Bond every decade.

Can't be beholden to one actor. Just can't.

[Yukaphile]

Excellent argument. And yeah, I feel sorry for the women getting it so hard from the toxic fandom today too. It seems like it's less about the characters, though, and more about right-wingers lashing out at Feminism and anyone they've slapped with an "SJW" label, which to their definition is extremely broad, and prominently women, minorities, LGBT community, and anyone not a cis-het white male.

[Nealithi]

First the thread title is about Neelix and Chuck's opinion of the character. Not was Ethan Phillips hurt by the character of Neelix.

The issue with Voyager is they seemed to take character traits and mash them up and then stick to them without thought to how it should be in the plot.
Captain Janeway = Female captain. Stumble about shoe horning her into being right to not offend people.
Chakotay = Native american mystic guy. And toss skill bones at because he doesn't have anything else.
Tuvok = we want another spock but make him security instead of science.
Paris = talented rogue. So he comes off good at so many things but always flippant.
Ensign Kim = Wooden background guy
Torres = Angry engineer.
Kes = alien nurse chapel
The Doctor = background medic
Neelix = the lovable bumbling sidekick.

This seems to have been the start and end point for all characters and you do not see interaction points. Areas to make them grow and let the actors sink their teeth into the roles either.
Janeway should have been the science geek. Always wanting to look at something new, while balancing that with her duties to the crew.
Chakotay should have been goal oriented and thinking combat related. He was a tactics instructor and resistance fighter. Thinking that way kept him alive. Let him be right from time to time. If you need a prop for him. Make that part of the episode. I had something that let one enter the dreamlands. Can you help me make something similar? etc.
Tuvok = his role should have been both teaching the rescued maquis how to starfleet. But also keeping them safe. His episode devoted to this should not have been him learning to bend the rules. It should have been him informing them that the rules are there to keep everyone aboard safe. But Starfleet also has a tradition of not leaving people behind if it can be helped. Let him have the moral high ground.
Paris should be the talented but jaded guy getting the rough edges chipped off because he learns to genuinely care about those around him.
Kim had a perfect setup. He is ensign new guy. You do not have Paris confused about black holes. Explain it to the new guy. And as he learns he gets less naive and gains rank.
Torres, okay shift some of the clueless to Harry. Her issues should be she is smart but has a temper. Have her goal to be to control that temper so she can work best with her engineering crew.
Kes, for the love of god figure out her species better. Chuck's assessment seems dead on. And slotting her in should be the curious child. She should have been the Seven to Janeway's teacher and parent figure.
The Doctor. . . Actually I don't think I ever disliked him. He was fine as is.
Neelix, dial back the buffoonery. He cooks fairly normally and he tries to explore federation culture to actually improve morale. His stints getting the crew sick. The morning OJ was a bit bitter. So he sprinkled in some talaxian seeds to sweeten it up. It did but for the humans in the crew it caused stomach issues. But it is easy to eat, for a talaxian. He is the delta quadrant lens looking at the federation. His role in landing parties is trade with various beings and asked about new locations. As they travel further his ability to tell them about a world gets less helpful as you move away from where he worked.

This is just general stuff. I think the producers wanted a new Star Trek show. But had no clue what they wanted in it. And as has been pointed out. Seven seasons of TNG meant everyone was low on ideas. They should have waited for DS9 to end. Cool off a year, then made voyager.

[Linkara]

I think Chuck's wrong to automatically hate Neelix's very PRESENCE. When not written to be a shithead, Neelix could be perfectly competent in his position as morale officer, ambassador, advisor, etc. For instance, Chuck disagreed that Neelix should be at the meetings in Scorpion... but honestly he DOES serve a function in both meetings. While Neelix was kind of written to be the food overlord, one could argue his role was more of a quartermaster - maintaining their supplies and rations and keeping up an inventory of their needs and consumption. Sometimes he took that role a little TOO seriously, though of course blame the writers for making him insufferable and stupid. In Scorpion, though, if he's supposed to be maintaining and extending their rations while they go through Borg space, it makes sense that he'd be at that meeting to share ideas and strategies about how to proceed or at least start making such plans (and indeed as he said in the episode, he does have a plan for extending their rations while travelling through Borg Space).

Since he also serves as morale officer, which is in some ways a mini-counselor for trying to maintain the good spirits of a crew far from home and in hostile territory, being at the second meeting also makes sense. The Captain has just announced a dangerous, seemingly insane plan of trying to make friends with the greatest enemy the Federation has ever known. Being the one who's in charge of keeping the crew's spirits up, it's necessary for him to know the details so he can sell the crew on this and reassure them that the Captain knows what she's doing and they shouldn't try to stage a mutiny on the crazy lady who's going to get them all assimilated. If he's serving in an advisory position, he needs to equally be there to voice his concerns about the plan and those of the crew, since one could argue that he is the direct line to the crew and their own thoughts.

Now, of course in actual practice Neelix tended to be garbage at this because the writers wrote him to be garbage at it, but I think much like how episodes like Scorpion demonstrated the show actually performing the premise it was supposed to, we shouldn't shun Neelix for his mere presence but rather acknowledge when he's not written annoyingly or stupidly and be happy for it.

[Yukaphile]

Well, his interactions with Tuvok don't bear that out. He can't respect that Vulcans were such wildly destructive, hateful beings, with such savagely intense emotions, they had to learn to suppress them, not just for their sake, but others around them. That's why Vulcans don't emote much. The flagship episode for this should be TNG's "Sarek." Imagine if Neelix were there, however? Nothing would kill the morale of the mission faster than having Neelix around to compound Sarek's illness during critical negotiations. He'd do precisely what Chuck said - he'd be the kind of guy who, when approaching a friend with diabetes, would say, "I couldn't get your insulin, but to make you feel better, here's a big box of Oreos!"

And the topic of the conversation was, in fact, whether Chuck was wrong while contrasting Neelix to Jar Jar, and contrasting how Ethan Phillips got a chance to explore his role to fullest flower while Ahmed Best did not, given what he said in "The Gift." It can get a bit confusing admittedly, but that was my intent.