STD: What's Past is Prologue

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Durandal_1707
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Re: STD: What's Past is Prologue

Post by Durandal_1707 »

AlucardNoir wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:31 amYou're not a viewer with an opinion, you're an asshole with an opinion, yadda yadda yadda.
Okay, that's enough time spent on that.
clearspira wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:16 am
Durandal_1707 wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:28 am It doesn't freaking matter. Blue guy isn't on his planet. When you go somewhere, you're responsible for knowing the laws of that place and not breaking them—as they say, ignorance of the law is not a defense. So your planet allows rape? That's fine, but you're on our ship, where rape is definitely not legal. Also, remind me never to visit your planet.

How far do you expect this would go in the real world? If you were raped, would you shrug it off just because the perp is visiting from Frobistan and claims that rape is legal in his country? Would you expect law enforcement to? There is no way to defend this.
Again though, my point is simple: is the naturally evolved reproductive system of your species actually rape? Pheremone use is how they as a lifeform evolved to have sex. That isn't rape. That's biology. To give a better real world example: dogs go into heat, a period that often can drive the male to ''rape'' the female. I think on such a world everything you were raised to know about consent would be upside down. I don't think your analogy of a human visiting another country works because you are dealing with another human doing it to another human. This simply is not the same thing as trying to deal with a literally alien way of thinking.

Now that is NOT to excuse negligence. I agree that ignorance is not an excuse. But to say that ''your planet allows rape'' I think is unfair.
Well, I mean, sexual aggression in humans is also an evolved behavior. That doesn't excuse it. Living in a society means needing to keep these things under control.
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Fixer
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Re: STD: What's Past is Prologue

Post by Fixer »

Got reports of people being assholes in this thread. Which looks accurate.

Don't be assholes. Rules 1 and 2 people.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2
Thread ends here. Cut along dotted line.
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Re: STD: What's Past is Prologue

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If there's two things in Star Trek I've been utterly bored with since the late 90s, it's the Klingons and the Mirror Universe. So Discovery's embrace of both, especially the way the MU just torpedoed the two most compelling characters on the show, Georgiou Prime and pre-reveal Lorca, really didn't endear itself to me. On the other hand, I like a lot of the stuff not directly related to those two things. I like the "lower decks" focus away from the bridge crew (but maybe don't make it such a big dramatic moment when the bridge crew decides to stand up for Starfleet ideals when I don't know or care anything about these people). I think most of the characters have potential. The spore drive is kind of dumb but at least it's a Trek show built around a big SF concept which we haven't really seen since DS9's wormhole. At least this version of Star Trek isn't totally playing it safe, though I still long for a Trek series that's a complete reboot instead of all these prequels, sequels, and alternate universes that keep a toe in the main continuity. I really hope the writers got most of the Mirror Universe nonsense out of their systems, and keep Klingon use to a minimum next season, and hopefully start doing something original.
Worffan101 wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:27 amWeirdest part, the writers should've been better than that. John Scalzi was on that team and he went on to be one of the best authors of modern SF I've read, with a knack for fast-paced sci-fi thrillers and biting comedy.
Scalzi wasn't part of the writers room though. He was billed as "Creative Consultant", which to hear him tell it, mostly amounted to making things more scientifically plausible, maintaining continuity, and checking the writers' math. (Unlike Voyager, it seems like the SGU creative team wanted to keep a tally of their limited supplies.)
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Re: STD: What's Past is Prologue

Post by FlynnTaggart »

kaingerc wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:19 pm But Chuck, Lorca HAS to be the real bad guy because he was paraphrasing Trump.
Wait, I thought it was the Klingons paraphrasing Trump? Lorca did it too?
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Re: STD: What's Past is Prologue

Post by Deledrius »

FlynnTaggart wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:05 am
kaingerc wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:19 pm But Chuck, Lorca HAS to be the real bad guy because he was paraphrasing Trump.
Wait, I thought it was the Klingons paraphrasing Trump? Lorca did it too?
Everyone did it, taking turns. The show has a very muddy morality. Not grey, just muddy. Everything seems to be making a point, but what that point is changes from episode to episode (and sometimes scene-to-scene), and the point never really seems to ever come out.
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Re: STD: What's Past is Prologue

Post by Worffan101 »

Deledrius wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:48 am
FlynnTaggart wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:05 am
kaingerc wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:19 pm But Chuck, Lorca HAS to be the real bad guy because he was paraphrasing Trump.
Wait, I thought it was the Klingons paraphrasing Trump? Lorca did it too?
Everyone did it, taking turns. The show has a very muddy morality. Not grey, just muddy. Everything seems to be making a point, but what that point is changes from episode to episode (and sometimes scene-to-scene), and the point never really seems to ever come out.
This. There's no overarching theme, no real point to this allegedly serialized narrative. It's just Shyamalan-style "ZOMG WHAT A TWIST!!!" reveals over and over.

And a huge effing waste of a perfectly good Rekha Sharma and an equally good Michelle Yeoh. Which pisses me off. (though, at least Yeoh got to have a little fun as Empress Cannibalpants)
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Re: STD: What's Past is Prologue

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Worffan101 wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:51 am There's no overarching theme, no real point to this allegedly serialized narrative. It's just Shyamalan-style "ZOMG WHAT A TWIST!!!" reveals over and over.
It's the worst of both worlds when it comes to the serialization. They gain all the problems of having a bad plot spill over and spoil other episodes, but no strengths of themes that take time to build and pay off. Just mysteries with resolutions that are either too obvious or provide nothing to the story (or worse, undermine it).
Worffan101 wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:51 am And a huge effing waste of a perfectly good Rekha Sharma and an equally good Michelle Yeoh. Which pisses me off. (though, at least Yeoh got to have a little fun as Empress Cannibalpants)
I agree. I was annoyed to see Landry being played so evilly... then killed. Then the MU reveal made me think they were going to recontextualize her earlier appearance, but no. She got nothing to do except to play a horrible officer. That actress could have handled so much more, if they'd bothered. Yeoh had fun, but it was hard to enjoy watching a character that the show was obviously pretending wasn't too awful to be allowed to run free. It's a tragedy that we get more of the Empress than we do of the Captain. It tells me something about what the people running season 1 think of Star Trek (and the fact that the season 2 team appears to be carrying this forward is not reassuring).

I'm quite concerned about all this "Destiny" nonsense. They clearly don't understand how to write an interesting destiny story, based on how Lorca was executed, and it flies in the face of the secular humanism that Star Trek has embraced for a very long time. Sadly, the JJ films really started this trend, and it's one I had hoped we wouldn't see infect the show. Alas.
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Re: STD: What's Past is Prologue

Post by Worffan101 »

Deledrius wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:06 amI agree. I was annoyed to see Landry being played so evilly... then killed. Then the MU reveal made me think they were going to recontextualize her earlier appearance, but no. She got nothing to do except to play a horrible officer. That actress could have handled so much more, if they'd bothered. Yeoh had fun, but it was hard to enjoy watching a character that the show was obviously pretending wasn't too awful to be allowed to run free. It's a tragedy that we get more of the Empress than we do of the Captain. It tells me something about what the people running season 1 think of Star Trek (and the fact that the season 2 team appears to be carrying this forward is not reassuring).

I'm quite concerned about all this "Destiny" nonsense. They clearly don't understand how to write an interesting destiny story, based on how Lorca was executed, and it flies in the face of the secular humanism that Star Trek has embraced for a very long time. Sadly, the JJ films really started this trend, and it's one I had hoped we wouldn't see infect the show. Alas.
Pretty much this.

I came up with a rewrite concept while brainstorming with some guys on alternatehistory.com, cooked up something with Yeoh as the show's secret big bad (the idea's that Mirror Georgiou, the "Empress of Terra" ('cause that sounds awesome when shouted in a dramatic fight scene), is trapped in the Prime Universe too and is secretly working with T'Kuvma in a convoluted plot to get herself more power), so that Yeoh can have fun hamming it up as a thoroughly awful Space Nazi and shout things like "YOU CAN'T DEFEAT ME, MICHAEL! I AM THE EMPRESS OF TERRA!" in the middle of a swashbuckling sword fight as the heroes try a dramatic prison break, stuff like that, just without the blatant stupidity of "the genocidal psychopath is a good guy now because Captain Lucius Malfoy quoted Trump".

Then again my version would've taken full advantage of the streaming format to get at least 15 more minutes of screen time per episode, scrap the mushroom drive in favor of "prototype transwarp" or something like that that's always on the fritz when dramatically appropriate, Sharma's a sort of straight-edged Lawful Neutral type to clash with Martin-Green's more typical protagonist daredevil type, add a little character work for the bridge crew so they're more than just furniture (details like, redhead whose name I forget is married, her wife got hurt in the initial Klingon invasion and she hates Burnham for that, it boils over after Mirror Georgiou reveals herself and they have a big-ass fight in the mess hall; one of the minor characters is a trans man, that's part of a subplot involving his less than supportive mother who's one of those MILzillas you hear about on Reddit, sort of thing; Sharma doesn't like Martin-Green because her dad was a crook who wrecked her family and she's less than convinced of the Federation's philosophies on criminal justice, they work together to free Lorca (who's a traumatized refugee from the MU who's fanatically devoted to the Federation since it's, you know, not an evil craphole) from Empress Georgiou and Sharma sort of comes around, that sort of thing).

I also had an idea--there are two Mudds. Bearded Mudd they meet first, he's a psychopath who does bad stuff until they beat him but he gets killed; later on they find Moustached!Mudd, who's the Prime version and a snivelling cowardly sleaze like the canonical Mudd, only one of his sleazy antics has left him in possession of evidence showing that Mirror Georgiou was working with T'Kuvma as part of an evil plan (basically, T'Kuvma lured an Important Klingon Guy to the battle site, planning to shoot him and blame it on the Federation, but a panicking Burnham, dealing with a ship on the fritz and Captain Georgiou knocked out by an exploding console, shot up the Klingon important guy's ship in a panic, starting the war), which can stop the war by causing the Klingons massive loss of face (because the Sarajevo incident here is a false flag and that makes the Klingons look bad) and forcing them into a white peace, only Mirror Georgiou finds out so the good guys have to do a game of cat and mouse for Regular Mudd's evidence so they can stop the war and defeat the Empress of Terra before she enslaves another universe.

A big theme would be self-redemption--Lorca, Burnham, redheaded chick, even Voq (who here isn't privy to the Big Plan and is basically our main Klingon POV character who idolizes T'Kuvma and comes to realize that his hero was a fraud and a scumbag) have to find a way to forgive themselves for their perceived wrongs. This is visualized thematically through scenes of symbolic atonement for the self-perceived wrongs, allowing the characters to re-live what they feel are their worst mistakes and do things better, basically. So Lorca, who's consumed by regret for his Prime duplicate's sacrifice (Prime!Lorca saved Mirror!Lorca, who was a member of a doomed resistance group who got vital intel from the Empress's lair but was caught and tortured by her before escaping with Prime!Lorca's help; they were being chased by the Terran Empire and Prime Lorca figured out the technobabble to go home, so he shoved Mirror Lorca into the tech-tech and sent him back in Prime Lorca's place, resulting in Prime Lorca's slow and painful death at the Empress's hands), willingly surrenders to Empress Georgiou so the good guys can find her ship and achieve some intel objective, Burnham defeats Mirror!Georgiou after agonizing over fighting someone who looks and sounds just like her mentor and then negotiates a truce between the Federation and the Klingons, that sort of thing.

Anyway, that's just a rough idea. What the show needs, at its core, is a disciplined writers' room, a bit more time per episode, more character work, less mushroom nonsense, characters who aren't TOTAL dickholes, and the kind of optimism we got out of DS9--where people are basically decent folks and try to do the best they can, not the Roddenberry box kinda thing where everybody's perfect and agrees on everything.

Just my 2 cents, anyway.
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Re: STD: What's Past is Prologue

Post by clearspira »

Durandal_1707 wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:29 pm
AlucardNoir wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:31 amYou're not a viewer with an opinion, you're an asshole with an opinion, yadda yadda yadda.
Okay, that's enough time spent on that.
clearspira wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:16 am
Durandal_1707 wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:28 am It doesn't freaking matter. Blue guy isn't on his planet. When you go somewhere, you're responsible for knowing the laws of that place and not breaking them—as they say, ignorance of the law is not a defense. So your planet allows rape? That's fine, but you're on our ship, where rape is definitely not legal. Also, remind me never to visit your planet.

How far do you expect this would go in the real world? If you were raped, would you shrug it off just because the perp is visiting from Frobistan and claims that rape is legal in his country? Would you expect law enforcement to? There is no way to defend this.
Again though, my point is simple: is the naturally evolved reproductive system of your species actually rape? Pheremone use is how they as a lifeform evolved to have sex. That isn't rape. That's biology. To give a better real world example: dogs go into heat, a period that often can drive the male to ''rape'' the female. I think on such a world everything you were raised to know about consent would be upside down. I don't think your analogy of a human visiting another country works because you are dealing with another human doing it to another human. This simply is not the same thing as trying to deal with a literally alien way of thinking.

Now that is NOT to excuse negligence. I agree that ignorance is not an excuse. But to say that ''your planet allows rape'' I think is unfair.
Well, I mean, sexual aggression in humans is also an evolved behavior. That doesn't excuse it. Living in a society means needing to keep these things under control.
Agree completely. I'm just brainstorming what an actual alien with this biology would be thinking/feeling as I find it to be an interesting concept. Its like Chuck mentioned in the Matrix video about the difference between us and AI. I certainly cannot think of many more alien concepts than heat/pheromones. But like I say, I certainly don't believe his negligence is forgivable.
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Re: STD: What's Past is Prologue

Post by SYLOH »

Of all the things that could replace spores.
I liked the Warhammer 40,000 thing the best.
The thing that ties the universe together, provides instantaneous interstellar travel, and if tapped could provide massive amounts of energy is.....
Literally Hell.
As in if you don't have an Anti-Demon field running while trying to FTL, the Demons will come into your ship and rip out your soul.
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