Doctor Who: Harriet Jones

[Wargriffin]

Thats the thing... Harriet Jones' decision would have been the right decision cause She'd most likely wouldn't have let the defenses of earth just rest on a bluff and if she was to usher in said golden age said defenses would be up to snuff well for any of the moderately armed aliens... They 'd have still been pwn by the Daleks Stealing Earth scenario


The Doctor's decision to basically deny that Golden age on a personal whim 'there is a topic all the shit Ten screwed up cause he was still angsting about his Man pain' had consequences that have changed Earth's development that the only reason someone hasn't shown up to read him the temporal riot act is their timelocked!

[Sir Will]

True, it's not like they won't just go invade some other planet. He only shooed them away from this one.

The Doctor believes in not killing people if he doesn't have to. If we're getting to the point that he should start killing his opponents (versus them destroying themselves) then that's a substantial change to his character.

And I didn't say he should. Though it does color some of his actions if he lets somebody bad get away who he basically knows will still do bad, just somewhere else. And sometimes he does put a permanent stop to such things or not allow escape. But it's not his job to pass judgement and kill all the bad guys. Well Jones made that call instead, to do what she thought would best protect Earth. Maybe she was wrong, and intentions are not an excuse, but it is something that at least her intentions were right.

Jones returned in the episode 'The Stolen Earth' where she sacrificed herself against the Daleks to enable the Doctor to find them. Not to save them, but to find them. Let me be clear on this point. Jones' sacrifice did nothing to affect the Doctor's ability to save the people of the earth beyond him getting to where Earth was and even then, the Daleks out-maneuvered him and nearly destroyed both the Doctor and the Tardis. So her sacrifice did NOT save the earth. It simply brought the Doctor to the Earth. I am NOT putting her sacrifice/gain on the same scale as Donna's sacrifice/game. Donna sacrificed all of her experiences with the Doctor as payment for saving all of creation. Jones sacrificed herself to allow the Doctor to find Earth.

I don't agree. Donna's actions were great but also not under her control. She didn't deliberately absorb the Timelord knowledge into herself. I totally believe she'd make that sacrifice, but this wasn't a conscious decision. Jones did what she did knowing it would very likely kill her. She helped reach out to the one person she knew might be able to save them from this overwhelming enemy. She gave us a chance and protected the other companions. It was a great sacrifice.

[TorroesPrime]

Jones returned in the episode 'The Stolen Earth' where she sacrificed herself against the Daleks to enable the Doctor to find them. Not to save them, but to find them. Let me be clear on this point. Jones' sacrifice did nothing to affect the Doctor's ability to save the people of the earth beyond him getting to where Earth was and even then, the Daleks out-maneuvered him and nearly destroyed both the Doctor and the Tardis. So her sacrifice did NOT save the earth. It simply brought the Doctor to the Earth. I am NOT putting her sacrifice/gain on the same scale as Donna's sacrifice/game. Donna sacrificed all of her experiences with the Doctor as payment for saving all of creation. Jones sacrificed herself to allow the Doctor to find Earth.

I don't agree. Donna's actions were great but also not under her control. She didn't deliberately absorb the Timelord knowledge into herself. I totally believe she'd make that sacrifice, but this wasn't a conscious decision. Jones did what she did knowing it would very likely kill her. She helped reach out to the one person she knew might be able to save them from this overwhelming enemy. She gave us a chance and protected the other companions. It was a great sacrifice.

That's a fair distinction to make.

[FaxModem1]

Again, I think it must be noted that if Earth is considered dangerous enough, aliens stay away. There was no mention of Sontarans trying to invade Earth during the Master's reign in the alternate timeline. Or of the Starship Titanic trying to crash into Earth, or of the Daleks stealing the planet.

What does that tell you about an armed Earth vs an unarmed one?

[Jonathan101]

Again, I think it must be noted that if Earth is considered dangerous enough, aliens stay away. There was no mention of Sontarans trying to invade Earth during the Master's reign in the alternate timeline. Or of the Starship Titanic trying to crash into Earth, or of the Daleks stealing the planet.

What does that tell you about an armed Earth vs an unarmed one?

Well, we don't know the exact timescale the Sontaran or Dalek attacks took place- it wasn't necessarily exactly one year later, even if there is a year between when the seasons aired.

I certainly don't think that the Daleks would have been stopped by the Master, so their attack at least probably would have come later. Sontarans might have been put off less by the Master being in charge (honestly they'd enjoy a good war) and more by the fact that Earth had been decimated and wasn't viable for their plans- in fact their plan might well have been underway at the time, but had to be scrapped due to the changing circumstances.

Titanic crashing into Earth was Plan B- Plan A was to use magnets to draw meteors to crash into the ship itself, so without the Doctor around that probably happened.

It's not simply a case of an armed Earth vs an unarmed one, and it certainly isn't an issue of anyone being scared off by the Master- and since the Master is an evil alien menace bent on world domination in his own right, that kind of misses the point a bit.

[CharlesPhipps]

It's not like the Sycorax were here in peace. It's unlikely that Earth was the first and last planet they'd ever tried to con. Harriet Jones, Prime Minister, probably did the galaxy a favour.

Maybe but as we saw with the Zygons and the Slitheen, the majority of races in the galaxy aren't entirely bad or good. That's more a Dalek and Cyberman thing.

If you can't be trusted to honor treaties, though, everyone will want to hit you first.

[CharlesPhipps]

Again, I think it must be noted that if Earth is considered dangerous enough, aliens stay away. There was no mention of Sontarans trying to invade Earth during the Master's reign in the alternate timeline. Or of the Starship Titanic trying to crash into Earth, or of the Daleks stealing the planet.

What does that tell you about an armed Earth vs an unarmed one?

I think a point needs to be made that there's a difference between actual SAS soldiers and a guy who plays Call of Duty: Modern Warfare as well as paintball. You may think this is a strange thing to point out but the distinction is, "actual badass" vs. "person who pretends to be a badass." Earth's defenses are rubbish. They're basically a bunch of ten year olds with foam rubber bats in terms of being able to fight aliens and even with the higher-than-normal tech from aliens they've built in the Whoverse, they don't have much that actually works. The laser weapon can't blow up the Sycorax until the Doctor has distracted them and they're one tiny ship of some galactic nobodies.

Harriet Jones is waving around her sword when she doesn't have the ability to defend Earth. Also, if you do blow up a ship to show "you can protect yourselves." Maybe you should do it when you actually can.

Again, I think it must be noted that if Earth is considered dangerous enough, aliens stay away. There was no mention of Sontarans trying to invade Earth during the Master's reign in the alternate timeline. Or of the Starship Titanic trying to crash into Earth, or of the Daleks stealing the planet.

What does that tell you about an armed Earth vs an unarmed one?

While continuity in Doctor who is a nightmare, we actually have an answer to that. There's a warning about the planet about to be going extinct thanks to the Master's abuses. So alien tourists are going to avoid it.

No point in going on holiday in, say, the Black Death.

It's not simply a case of an armed Earth vs an unarmed one, and it certainly isn't an issue of anyone being scared off by the Master- and since the Master is an evil alien menace bent on world domination in his own right, that kind of misses the point a bit.

The Master does have weapons capable of fighting off aliens, though. He's a coward but he's basically Brainiac and Earth doesn't have a Lex Luthor yet.

Wow, I'm a nerd.

[FaxModem1]

Again, I think it must be noted that if Earth is considered dangerous enough, aliens stay away. There was no mention of Sontarans trying to invade Earth during the Master's reign in the alternate timeline. Or of the Starship Titanic trying to crash into Earth, or of the Daleks stealing the planet.

What does that tell you about an armed Earth vs an unarmed one?

I think a point needs to be made that there's a difference between actual SAS soldiers and a guy who plays Call of Duty: Modern Warfare as well as paintball. You may think this is a strange thing to point out but the distinction is, "actual badass" vs. "person who pretends to be a badass." Earth's defenses are rubbish. They're basically a bunch of ten year olds with foam rubber bats in terms of being able to fight aliens and even with the higher-than-normal tech from aliens they've built in the Whoverse, they don't have much that actually works. The laser weapon can't blow up the Sycorax until the Doctor has distracted them and they're one tiny ship of some galactic nobodies.

Harriet Jones is waving around her sword when she doesn't have the ability to defend Earth. Also, if you do blow up a ship to show "you can protect yourselves." Maybe you should do it when you actually can.

Well, yes, hence my pointing out that UNIT/Torchwood/whomever needs to get to building Earth an actual fleet someday, sooner rather than later. I'm just pointing out that resting all your hopes on one tourist who may bore of you, depending on what color shirt he's wearing, such as a Malcolm Tucker costume which influences him to not give a crap if lives are on the line, having defenses in place would be a boon, even if they're more akin to rubber sticks than actual swords.

[CharlesPhipps]

Well, yes, hence my pointing out that UNIT/Torchwood/whomever needs to get to building Earth an actual fleet someday, sooner rather than later. I'm just pointing out that resting all your hopes on one tourist who may bore of you, depending on what color shirt he's wearing, such as a Malcolm Tucker costume which influences him to not give a crap if lives are on the line, having defenses in place would be a boon, even if they're more akin to rubber sticks than actual swords.

Yeah, in RL, a lot of countries resent having to rely on bigger and better armed countries in the equivalent of NATO.

Which the Docor is a 1 man NATO.

And UNIT is a good thing.

It's just in Harriet's case, I don't think her actions did much more than salve her ego. It also ticked off the Doctor. We know he won't abandon the Earth because of what she did but if you need someone like the Doctor, it's probably a good idea to not tick him off.

(And while he's missed some events, he's always been here for the world ending stuff--eventually)

[Rocketboy1313]

It's not like the Sycorax were here in peace. It's unlikely that Earth was the first and last planet they'd ever tried to con. Harriet Jones, Prime Minister, probably did the galaxy a favour.

Maybe but as we saw with the Zygons and the Slitheen, the majority of races in the galaxy aren't entirely bad or good. That's more a Dalek and Cyberman thing.

If you can't be trusted to honor treaties, though, everyone will want to hit you first.

You keep bringing up a treaty that Earth broke.

I disagree with that summation of events.
The doctor extracted an oath, which the leader immediately betrayed.
The Doctor then compelled them to leave.
At no point was the Doctor appointed the head of or ambassador of Earth and no treaty was approved of or ratified by any government (in contrast to 12 being President of Earth).
He spoke for Earth because the bad guys mistook him for Earth's representative.

There is no treaty. There is no binding agreement.

Beyond that the alien leadership has shown themselves to be bad faith negotiators that only respond to displays of superior force. Without the Doctor's presence (something that is guaranteed only because this is a TV show of which the Doctor is the protagonist) there is nothing that holds them to their word not to come back.

1 final point, they are SLAVERS. Fuck them.
They are not in anyway afforded the same moral consideration of species that meet us on neutral or even combative levels. They are in no way good faith negotiators and all negotiations with them should at best be seen as delay tactics before they are confronted and defeated.
Sure, on the sliding scale of villainy they are not as evil as the Daleks who wage a war of annihilation on the universe, but they are not to be seen as civilized members of the galaxy.