Doctor Who: Harriet Jones

[Wargriffin]

them being Slavers is a matter of you can blow them up and get away with it.


say opposed to the Dregin who are also Slavers... who you can't just blow them up and get away with it.

[CharlesPhipps]

No one is saying the Sycorax were decent blokes.

It's just:

1. Harriet's rationale doesn't make much sense since you can't shoot someone in the back to be taken seriously.
2. Using the Doctor to do it could lead to one of his epic funks.
3. Harriet asked for the Doctor's help in the first place and then complained about how he did it.
4. Really, while we could say "Britain's Golden Age" is lost because of the Doctor, the Master was always going to screw things up.
5. Also, if you do go behind the Doctor's back, why are you surprised there's consequences? In this case, the Doctor just started a whisper campaign.

Harriet got off light, really. Had she gone all Brigadier and not tried it behind the Doctor's back, I suspect he would have been mad but left her in charge.

[TorroesPrime]

No one is saying the Sycorax were decent blokes.

It's just:

1. Harriet's rationale doesn't make much sense since you can't shoot someone in the back to be taken seriously.

Why not? I mean, as Garak said:

2. Using the Doctor to do it could lead to one of his epic funks.
3. Harriet asked for the Doctor's help in the first place and then complained about how he did it.

no she didn't. She took action and then stated that he very nearly wasn't there to save earth this time. her complaint was about his reliability, not his actions.

4. Really, while we could say "Britain's Golden Age" is lost because of the Doctor, the Master was always going to screw things up.

Yeah... honestly, I don't believe he would have been able to unseat Jones without the Doctor's help in that regard.

5. Also, if you do go behind the Doctor's back, why are you surprised there's consequences? In this case, the Doctor just started a whisper campaign.

Not really sure what point you are making here. Jones wasn't surprised that there would be consequences for her actions, she was surprised at how simplistic they were.

[Darth Wedgius]

I think the more logical choice would have been for Jones to avoid firing the weapon until the Sycorax left. The last thing you want to do is have the weapon you just rushed to readiness misfire and make the Sycorax angry while simultaneously showing that you can't reliably negotiate an amicable end to hostilities. Then test the honkin' big space gun after they're gone, and keep your powder dry for the next time the Doctor can't help.

If the Sycorax come back (which they easily might do, not being the trustworthy sort), then blast away. If another threat shows up, blast it as your warning shot to the universe.

But the fact that people are still discussing this years later suggests strongly to me that there is no clear answer. That makes it a judgement call, and one she was authorized to make. I think the Doctor overstepped himself in getting her kicked out.

[TorroesPrime]

I think the Doctor overstepped himself in getting her kicked out.

So before I say anything else, I want to say that I agree with you.

Now the rest of what I am going to say: That's the crucial difference between Tennet's doctors and Eccleston's Doctor. Eccleston's Doctor loved Earth for what it is and was grateful to have it has a second home. Tennet's Doctor loved earth for what it could be and would take action to ensure it stayed on track to become that.

[AllanO]

But the fact that people are still discussing this years later suggests strongly to me that there is no clear answer. That makes it a judgement call, and one she was authorized to make. I think the Doctor overstepped himself in getting her kicked out.

I don't know the thing it is suggests to me is if a writer injects any counter currents or nuance into a thing, people will seize on that and take that as proof of the other side then what is built up elsewhere. Of course in some cases they will just make their justification for their alternative take out of whole clothe.... Anyway I basically agree with what CharlesPhipps has said on this.

I'd say in reality though that what she did made no blind bit of difference one way or the other- the Sycorax either would still have come back, or went on to terrorise other worlds as usual, but I haven't seen a single alien race that attacked Earth that even knows that the humans destroyed them (they probably don't even know who the Sycorax are- the Doctor didn't seem to, I don't think, so they must be pretty low on the cosmic totem pole, a glorified space-street gang). The Master and the Daleks and the Cybermen certainly wouldn't give a sh*t, nor the Sontarans or any other random race that showed up later on.

It struck me when the episode was originally being discussed here either Sycorax HQ had no communication with the ship in which case destroying the ship does nothing to send a message because no one knows or the ship was in constant communication with HQ so they knew it was destroyed after agreeing to leave or (and this seems least likely) the ship was in intermittent communication such that they somehow manage to communicate that they were shot by a big laser but not that this was while they were already leaving. It is not clear how (or if) Harriet Jones knew which of these were the case even though which one is the case would be kind of vital to how or if your blow them plan might actually achieve the stated goal of showing the universe that Earth can defend itself.

[CharlesPhipps]

I think Harriet's choice was perfectly human.

But I think it was also one made on the spur of the moment and exactly the opposite of what the Doctor was trying to convince her of. The Doctor was saying Earth could make huge numbers of allies and be friends with space while she was thinking in terms of scaring them.

Yeah... honestly, I don't believe he would have been able to unseat Jones without the Doctor's help in that regard.

Canonically, Harriet Jones wasn't removed from office but lost the next election. The Master brainwashed all of Britain to vote for him. Are we to assume that you think his mind-control wouldn't work against her versus his opponent....why?

I mean, it's not like the Master was elected fairly anyway.

[Riedquat]

I think Harriet's choice was perfectly human.

But I think it was also one made on the spur of the moment and exactly the opposite of what the Doctor was trying to convince her of. The Doctor was saying Earth could make huge numbers of allies and be friends with space while she was thinking in terms of scaring them.

Some you can be friends with, others are only threats.

As has been pointed out the Doctor isn't a spokesman for Earth, the only betrayal was the Sycorax themselves. They'd been temporarily scared off by the Doctor, nothing more. There was nothing to suggest that "now go away and be nice" was going to achieve anything in the long run. The only mistake was not to have revealed the weapon earlier, then "speak softly and carry a big stick" may have worked. Ideally you want to be no threat to potential friends and capable of giving a bloody nose to anyone who won't be dissuaded by anything other than force. If you can't manage that you'll have to bow down to force.

There's also the ethical issue of letting such people go when they'd certainly have gone off and done the same to another world. Of course blowing them up is also an ethical issue, but IMO it's the lesser evil. Locking them all up wasn't possible.

[Jonathan101]

The Doctor has no legal standing on Earth (at this point at least) and was in no position to decide that Harriet Jones should not be Prime Minister regardless of her decision here; we can say that the Master would have screwed things up anyway, but the Doctor had no way of knowing that, so he basically screwed with history to punish someone for panicking in the aftermath of an alien invasion.

I will reiterate that even though Jones asked for his help, he left it 'til he 11th hour (even if for reasons beyond his control) and his "help" took the form of basically bossing everyone around and telling people what to do, and he appeared as a stranger with a new face. It just reinforces to Jones that he isn't the most reliable help out there.

Honestly I think even the Doctor himself might admit that even though Jones was wrong in this one, he shouldn't have ruined her career over it or sabotaged what was supposed to be a Golden Age for Great Britain, and he only did so because he was immature- at this point he is basically the same as Hand-Doctor from Journey's End, and 10th thought Hand-Doctor was too ruthless and not human enough.

At the end of the day obviously neither Harriet nor the Doctor did anything to prevent or dissuade aliens from attacking again- certainly not the aliens who were coming- but Jones at least had no way of knowing that for sure.

I don't think shooting a fleeing enemy in the back would have cost Jones or Earth any trust points with the rest of the galaxy when the enemy in question were murderous space pirates who preyed on vulnerable planets and had shown that they were perfectly willing to break their own word if they thought they could get away with it, and only flew away because a more powerful alien showed up to scare them off (temporarily); this would be more like if the French Resistance killed a bunch of fleeing Nazi's after the Allies chased the Nazi's off. Earth is seen as very low-tech and neutral while the Sycorax only slightly more advanced and hostile, so no real diplomatic blunder was made here.

It did not achieve at all what she wanted, but I don't think the Doctor was in the right to punish her for it, especially given his ultimate objection comes down to "Only I get to make those kind of decisions, not you; how dare you act like me".

[CharlesPhipps]

Except the Doctor had legal standing because he was empowered by Harriet Jones as an arbiter/aid.

The whole public request for salvation and all that.

Also, in real life, you often have to deal with bad people and if you can't make peace with them by them being able to trust your word (if not theres) then you'll have to deal with them constantly. Very rarely is, "kill all the Baddies" an option outside of WW2.

But, again, shooting the Sycorax is the least problematic portion of this.