VOY: Mortal Coil Review

[MixedDrops]

It's true that Chuck's Discovery reviews have a different feel than his typical Trek reviews, but I attribute that more to the fact that he's watching it as it airs alongside everyone else. But like I said, with Voyager/Enterprise he was unambiguous about his feelings on those shows even when he talked about them soon after they aired, so I don't really think Chuck is being dishonest when his take on Discovery was essentially "has potential, but meh". He didn't make fun of bumpy foreheads sure, but he made fun of Saru being evolved from a prey species multiple times.

And Christ man you just won't let that 2-second shot of a Klingon peeing go. You seriously think that's as bad as Enterprise spending entire subplots on T'pol panting in her skin-tight outfit or acting horny in her underwear?

Maybe Chuck will grow to hate Discovery, who knows. I just think it's ridiculous that your reaction to him not hating a show you do at this moment is "there must be something holding him back" rather than "maybe he just doesn't hate the show".

[Madner Kami]

I'm not going to argue, I will just lay out what I think: There is no God, therefore no designed purpose, no designated meaning. Life is just a random set of chances and nothing more. There is no afterlife. Therefore, in addition to being a random set of chances, this right here is all there is. There is nothing waiting for you. No family members, no divine wisdom, no peace or punishment. You merely rot in the ground.

Personally, that is why I often see ''God replacements'' come from atheists that have just as little evidence to them as God and require just as much baseless faith. Ancient aliens that are waiting for us, VR simulations, reincarnation, spirits. They all have the same basic root: ''I cannot accept that this is all there is and it depresses me to think otherwise - therefore, look at this vast network of other fantasies that I have developed.''

I agree with this assessment, however I can not agree with this:

How is the endpoint of pure atheism not the futility of existence that is nihilism?

Nihilism denies that there is any meaning at all. This is true on a natural level. The Universe does not care for what I do or think or even if I exist (well, unless I command a machine that allows me to temper with the Universe on a rather fundamental level, but I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon or ever really) and obviously, there is no meaning to my existence to the natural world. I am not here for a deeper reason beyond my parents having had sex at least once.

However, we clearly have a meaning to each other and we are clearly capable of giving things a meaning and I am not talking about assigning the universe a deeper sense of purpose or even will, but solely about the interaction between us and our interaction with our unfathomably tiny pocket of the universe. What I say and do, whether you agree with it or not, whether it changes your mind or not, whether it changes your life or not, has a meaning to you, just as yours does to me, as will our interactions have to the people around us and those who come after us.
I am aware that there's a spiritual or metaphysical component to that line of thought, but I very much argue, that this is based off a psychological reality that can not be denied and that is completely based off the uncaring reality of this universe, without being an inherent property of this universe itself. As an example, two rocks sitting next to each other is meaningless, means nothing to the rocks or the universe. Two rocks sitting next to each other after someone put them there, has a meaning. Our awareness of and our interactions with our surroundings automatically creates a meaning.

Nihilism is not just the stance that the universe has no meaning, but also that our interactions have no meaning. I find this to be obviously and provably false and as such deeply disagree with nihilism being a natural result of atheism. It's a natural result of an atheism that disregards our personal reality and our interactions with each other and our surroundings.

[Formless One]

Nihilism is the natural end of atheism though that's the thing. The moment you disregard the existence of God and with it design, then you are admitting you also believe that this is all there is. People like to argue against this fact because it is so bleak and it depresses them.

I vehemently disagree with the assessment of your first sentence. It's neither the natural end of atheism, nor a particularly sensible conclusion though. I would accept argueing, that people who are depressed, be that temporarly or permanently, and who loose their foundation in this world, naturally gravitate towards nihilism. The natural end of atheism though is, that when there is no greater meaning in Life, then it is left to the individual to give Life a meaning.

I'm not going to argue, I will just lay out what I think: There is no God, therefore no designed purpose, no designated meaning. Life is just a random set of chances and nothing more. There is no afterlife. Therefore, in addition to being a random set of chances, this right here is all there is. There is nothing waiting for you. No family members, no divine wisdom, no peace or punishment. You merely rot in the ground.

How is the endpoint of pure atheism not the futility of existence that is nihilism?

Personally, that is why I often see ''God replacements'' come from atheists that have just as little evidence to them as God and require just as much baseless faith. Ancient aliens that are waiting for us, VR simulations, reincarnation, spirits. They all have the same basic root: ''I cannot accept that this is all there is and it depresses me to think otherwise - therefore, look at this vast network of other fantasies that I have developed.''

I think the issue is that even for atheists like us, "meaning" does not have to equal "god substitute" in the way that all of your examples imply (i.e. literally god-like things that create meaning in a conspiracy theory or nondescript spiritual sort of way). There are other sources, even for the religious. Politics, social connections, philosophy, arguably science if you are the curious type. And there is the idea that meaning and purpose are things that we create rather than things we were created to fulfill-- hence Jean Paul Sartre's claim "existence precedes essence" ("essence" being philosopher shorthand for meaning, purpose, and the Soul). Not believing in God doesn't mean you automatically lose all those other sources of meaning, purpose, and values. Heck, a lot of religions don't derive those things from God in the first place like Christians and Jews do, but from the larger religious framework that their gods exist within. Like Buddhism and Hinduism and most of the pagan religions (even if no one worships them anymore, they used to). And there being no afterlife is arguably no barrier either, because most people desire purpose, and purpose can only be served in the here and now to begin with.

I don't know where exactly people get these ideas about the relationship between Nihilism and Atheism. I think its a misunderstanding of either Frederich Nietzsche or Albert Camus. Camus never said there was no meaning in life, merely that life is worth living despite the absurdity we encounter in it. Its literally the whole point of The Myth of Sisyphus, so I'm not going to summarize it (though Chuck touched on some salient points in his Madoka reviews). And when even Nietzsche is concluding that nihilism is stupid, you know something is up. That's literally what all of his talk of Supermen and treating your life like a work of art is all about-- rejecting nihilism without substituting god with something else that's superficially the same. I think every human being intuitively knows something is wrong with nihilism and nihilists, but they just have a hard time putting their finger on what it is that bugs them about it until they really dive deep into the philosophical literature.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

I think if you differentiate between objective and subjective meaning, then we can get all you atheists on the same page. In the popular sense of the term, nihilism entails a lack of objective meaning, not subjective purpose. From an outsider's perspective, it would seem difficult for an atheist to argue for objective meaning (and many wouldn't care to), hence the connection between atheism and nihilism. It doesn't mean you have no personal values or are required to be an angsty first year philosophy student.

Of course there may be more rigorous, specific definitions of nihilism, different types depending on the philosophical field, etc.

[Yukaphile]

@MixedDrops It's hard to let it go because it strikes me as puerile and adolescent, and retcons the Klingons. It is literally pointless at best, actively contradictory at worst. And it shows you what the priority of the new administration is and what they feel is most important. Not character, not clever plots, not hard sci-fi, just... this. Of the current crop of writers, I really feel they should have brought Ron Moore back. Was he even asked?

To the comments of the others, this episode, I feel, resonates with some because of that universal fear: Fear of death, and what lies beyond, and how some have trouble accepting it and reconciling that with our own innate curiosity. What will become of me, will I change, will I never have known anything, etc? To that, I say, as meaningless as it is, as set in stone as it is, you just gotta sit back and let the universe do its thing. Like Spock said, have faith, that the universe will unfold as it should. I, personally, think death is related to all sorts of dimensional stuff that we haven't grasped because we're still a growing, primitive race, small and limited by a small worldview. Could we understand it someday? Possibly, but then again, maybe not. In the end, what does it matter? Live for the moment and those you care for.

[Poipoi]

When I saw this my first thought was the show has to be taunting poor SFdebris again. Esp since I knew how much he dislikes Neelix.

I never hated the character myself but as time goes by, I began to see why some people do. Some elements of this episode remind me of flatliners, except he didn't get the awesome vision they did nor did he purposely try to kill himself.

I do feel they could have handled this episode better. The beginning felt like a fever dream or a self delusion of how Neelix thinks the world is. I always got the impression they tolerated at most. Maybe the kids liked him. Won't bore you with what I would have done because I'm not a writer and most lilely my ideas aren't all that great either. lol

[Madner Kami]

Again, I do wanna bring this up. Neelix can't cook pizza? Something so mainstream it's one of the most American foods that's part of the fast-food industry?

I'd rather want to point out the frightening fact, that Chuck spent more time with Neelix than the Voyager's crew.

[Veggietrekker]

@Veggietrekker So that's the reason he won't give STD the thrashing it deserves? It's the "new suck," and hasn't been absorbed into him over two decades now?

Well speaking specifically on how it is solely a show made to show Michael as being great in every god damn episode I think it might have passed him in its initial viewing. It’s basically how Neelix is in this episode, especially now in season 2 where the plot is even more about her. Chuck is seeing it for the first time, but seeing Neelix many times over the years for rewatch. And in a job where you make reviews I’d be willing to bet it has a delayed reaction. But we will see in time. He may just genuinely cut it more slack..for some reason.

[Yukaphile]

Or it may be he legitimately wasn't as angry with Voyager and Enterprise as he is today. That's two-plus decades of that gnawing on you. Could be like with STID, where he was neutral at first, then got way more negative with his review. It takes a while for the suck to really seep in.

[G-Man]

I, personally, think death is related to all sorts of dimensional stuff that we haven't grasped because we're still a growing, primitive race, small and limited by a small worldview.

"Death is a primitive concept. I prefer to think of them as battling evil - in another dimension!"

[youtube]https://youtu.be/U4D0HSqKiKU?t=123[/youtube]