Babylon 5: A Race Through Dark Places

[Nealithi]

Right in that un controlled telepaths are just about the most dangerous thing imaginable. If you don't see that, you're not thinking it through.

The trouble with all this is, and things like bringing up genocide, and yes, it's a terrible thing, is that discrimination and genocide are bad because we know the claimed reasons for doing so are shullbeach as humans are pretty much the same pretty much everywhere so it always boils down to one group of batrads murdering people because they just kinda want to.

That isn't the case with telepaths. They ARE different. They ARE dangerous. They ARE getting MORE dangerous.

The best case you could have, because these differences are very, very real, is to have the 'good' ones police the 'bad' ones, but the nature of TPs dictates that in order to do so ALL of them must be so policed. Only TPs can detect other TPs. Any TP would and must be a tremendously disruptive factor to any non-TP they encounter. Simply being aware of the moods of those around you would be impossible to avoid.

Take a simple, easy example. We know TPs's abilities kick in around the onset of puberty. Soon these TPs can read feelings and surface thoughts. So what happens when a TP thinks that normie is hot and they'd maybe like to do the squishy squishy? Well, the TP has one hell of an advantage. So much an advantage, I'd suggest that reasoned consent could be violated.

What about a job interview? Bank loans? Casinos? Elections?

You might suggest that they might ignore these advantages, and I'd say that's immensley naive. I'm fairly certain you couldn't possibly do so, even if you wanted to.

And sure, it's not their fault. We have no idea what the Vorlons did to turn them into weapons, but we do know that happened. We know it's somehow genetic because the Corps' genetic experiments keep unlocking new levels. We know that if there even are limits on those levels, they've almost deity like. Jason Ironheart was capable of wiping out the whole of B5 when his subconscious started throwing a paddy. Lyta's way, way beyond any TP seen aside from JI.

I know, most people here seem to think the solutions to any of these sorts of issues is 'Well, d'uh, we'll just change human nature by force...' and don't get that that way of thinking makes them the bad guys. Fine and all.

It won't change that Psy-Corps is the kindest way of dealing with a very real, very serious problem, and the only other way would inevitably end up as genocide. As such, Bester is right.

Let me get the obvious out of the way. I disagree.

Now for why. We have been shown untrained telepaths. They are not great schemers turning people into puppets. They are either so weak that they have little bits of inspiration about motivations in others. Which would make them what, a good used car dealer?
Then you have the strong gifts. They blast in and make the user collapse from the sudden noise of everyone around them suddenly screaming in their heads. Telepathy is shown to require skill to learn and constant vigil to maintain your own protections. Left alone these people will try to retreat from society to stop the pain. Not suddenly have the raw power to make everyone around them bow to the new god-emperor. Telekinesis and strong empathy are traits that were experimented with to be brought into existence. So you are not going to see people suddenly the friend of a random telepath. You are not going to have things flung around. So the telepaths are more afflicted than blessed. And need help. Will some of humanity try to destroy them for being different? Yes. And how is that really different from every other time humanity has done the same? Because they worship a different god, the same god differently? Hair colour, skin colour, shape of the eye? Humans seem really good at finding excuses to kill other humans. This, in the end, is no different.

[Yukaphile]

Jiminy Cricket.

"We Have Cocks!"

You know, I really wish we'd got more exploration of Talia's new abilities after what Jason Ironheart did. It's such a shame.

I spotted a Native American! At least he wasn't treated like Chakotay.

I said it before, I'll say it again. I do hate the slant media has this way, where it's like, you show a rape victim getting pregnant, and... it's unanimously written as such that she would want that baby, that she wouldn't hate it, despise it, want it gone, because it was conceived in pain. It's yet another way gender roles dominate our society, because we think women are so much more nurturing than us, that to not want a baby conceived against her will is sacrilege. Against "her nature." I really hate that.

I did like the little fleshing out moments for Franklin this way. It hows that despite his flaws (stim addiction, etc), the man really does care as a healer.

Won't lie, when I first saw this, I was genuinely upset, thinking Talia had betrayed them. Turns out, that was the plan all along. Shockingly effective, which was the point, I suppose. Again, so tragic about her.

You know, I wish we'd gotten more moments between Talia and Susan here. It would really sell what she says later on, that she'd love Talia (perhaps as much as Garibaldi). Oh well. Can't win them all.

[FaxModem1]

You know, I wish we'd gotten more moments between Talia and Suans here. It would really sell what she says later on, that she'd love Talia (perhaps as much as Garibaldi). Oh well. Can't win them all.

Garibaldi didn't really love Talia. He had the hots for her, and stalked her, almost to a sexual harassment level, but there wasn't love there. If you want to see security chief in love with a telepath, look at Zack. Zack is compassionate, caring, willing to help, and recognizes when No means No, even though at the time, Lyta was possessed by a Vorlon program to deal with the Thirdspace aliens. Either way, Zack backed off when he thought Lyta wasn't interested, but he always carried an actual torch for her.

Garibaldi just thought Talia was hot.

[Yukaphile]

True. Though give Garibaldi credit, he also knew when to fold 'em... at times. Like when he wanted Talia to inquire into the Mars rebellion.

[Fianna]

I'm sure Garibaldi would say that, as head of security, it's his job to stalk everyone.

[TachyonDrift]

OK

Let me get the obvious out of the way. I disagree.

Your stance is bigoted.

You are a bigot.

You do not seem to have understood any of the subtext of the show.

I know you want people to think you're a good boy.
You're a good boy. Have a biscuit.

[Steve]

OK

Let me get the obvious out of the way. I disagree.

Your stance is bigoted.

You are a bigot.

You do not seem to have understood any of the subtext of the show.

I know you want people to think you're a good boy.
You're a good boy. Have a biscuit.

Uh, what? How was his disagreement in any way the stance of a "bigot"? Or even contradictory with the show, given that it's clear untrained telepaths have difficulty using their abilities, and strong ones find being around other people debilitating and have to train to keep up "walls". Which is in of itself tiring, to the point that Talia tells Sinclair that making love to another telepath is special because it, for a time, cuts out all of that background noise.

You can argue that Nealithi's argument betrays naivety about the possibilities of telepath malfeasance, but to call the argument "bigotry" is so much of a stretch you'd give Reed Richards a sprain.

[Beastro]

It might be a plot hole that Centauri telepaths don't run their civilization. The Centauri have a lot of government intrigue going on, including some pretty brutal stuff. Knowing what the other guy is thinking, or clouding their judgement at a proper time, would be a huge advantage.

The Mimbari seem more honor-bound on the surface, but we've seen them find... creative ways of interpreting their code, ways that let them get what they want. The same might apply to them.

Chuck doesn't like the Minbari "ape doesn't kill ape" moral code, but it explains the telepath position in their society: The strength of that moral code that allows it to be a reality, rather than just a naive hope with Mankind, compels Minbari telepaths to not meddle with their people.

That still leaves open the fact that the Minbari have a very different outlook on other races, and I could see them being very nasty. Now that I think about it, I could see the Minbari military having a telepath element for war, but that then opens up why no one else does that.

The more I think about telepathy in B5, the more I think it was brought in for certain plot reasons and out of the New Age zeitgeist interest in that sort of thing in the 80s and 90s, but is one whose full ramifications were never considered or integrated into the world build around the show. Enough was done to explain their role in human society, but it was ignored or unforeseen how each race would then develop their own actions and reactions to their own lot.

[Deledrius]

The more I think about telepathy in B5, the more I think it was brought in for certain plot reasons and out of the New Age zeitgeist interest in that sort of thing in the 80s and 90s, but is one whose full ramifications were never considered or integrated into the world build around the show. Enough was done to explain their role in human society, but it was ignored or unforeseen how each race would then develop their own actions and reactions to their own lot.

Technomages are the same way in B5. He put them in because he was ripping off Tolkien, and to be fair he recognized something fundamental about magic in Middle Earth that many people miss and translated it into the future setting pretty well, but for the most part they seem to only exist because they were in the source material and because cyberpunk was still a thing at the time and putting in Technomages sounds cool. They really don't make a lot of sense in the larger story we got, and are so quickly shipped out of town as to have no effect on the story either.

(Yes I'm aware they were going to play a role in Crusade and probably some novels, but in the aired material: nada)

[TachyonDrift]

I'd written about three differet long winded replies, and in the end they all boiled down to that, and I was tired and I find that kind of simplistic VS irritating at best.

I apologise for an unneccesarily brusque reply.

But...

Assuming every one of a given sub-group will act the same way is the definition of bigotry.

"All blacks are..."
"All asians are..."
"All women are..."
"All telepaths are..."

Same thing.

The point is that...

Telepaths are different because they are telepaths, that is NOT an insignificant difference. I'm fairly sure one can assume that some of them are good, some of them are bad and most of them are mainly bored. I don't think a sane person would believe a telepath would never be tempted to gain advantage even if they're one of the good ones, but even if I were to grant that, there ARE bad telepaths. They cannot be policed by non-telepaths because they are telepaths. The only people who could police them are other telepaths. Hence the Psy-cops. Any telepath attempting to avoid the Psi-Cops would have to be a risk, given that they are attempting to avoid being policed by the only people that CAN police them. Ergo, Bester, in this episode, is doing the right thing, even though Bester is, as we know as watchers, a complete bastard.

The Psi-Cops are the only method to police telepaths, your other options would be genocide, or giving up on the idea of any kind of functional society.

I'm not saying Bester is a good person, or a nice person, or that the Psi-Cops act morally, just that they're right. The other options are far, far worse.

Add to that that, no, Nealithi's description of telepaths on B5 just does not jibe with what is shown.

Lastly, anyone who knows B5 knows that JMS never does anything in plain sight. G'Kar's line in the pilot "No-one here is exactly what they appear to be" is the entire flavour base of the show. We know JMS had plans to run B5 into The Telepath Wars as a connected but seperate show. Setting up the Psi-Cops to be just a generic jackbooted villain would be completely out of character for him and could never be sufficient to run an entire show off.