TNG - "Up The Long Ladder"

[Mecha82]

Way I see it one more possible option could had been similar to what Clans from Battletech do and use genetic material to create bunch of test tube babies that can be genetically modified if there is need but without wanting perfect humans for certain tasks. While it has potential to be problematic in society not dedicated for warfare I do find it to be better option than cloning.

[TachyonDrift]

Well, just lost a long reply because apparently this forum and / or Firefox doesn't keep a form sheet active when you move from screen A to screen B. Which is genuinely ducking annoying.
So, this will be much briefer, as I can't be arsed to dive again into why people who don't know how sex and pregnancy works probably shouldn't be trying to argue on the subject, except to repeat that being unable to rule out a thing does not make that thing likely.
When I can't find my glasses, it's technically possible they were moved by a pair of blonde Swedish ninja sisters with a penchant for threeways and a fetish for the slightly blind. It seems tremendously unlikely, though, and more likely that I've put them down somewhere whilst doing something, and now not having them makes my ability to locate them somewhat sub-par.

If they're all females then there's not a Y chromosome to be had and you won't get any male births.

Thank you, that's the very sort of thing, done and dusted. I'm addressing the wanking issue by simply having human cloning be flat out illegal in the UFP. Can't think of any episode that'd screw up.

It was a silly problem from a sub-par episode, IMHO, though an episode with a few nice touches.

Not sure what the nice touches would be, I don't recall any, really. Well, maybe the 'you generally start at the top and work your way down' that's quite a nice line. But then that only reminds me that this romance was a pointless subplot that goes literally nowhere. Just like everything to do with Worf. And the question of why they don't clone LaForge too. So, I have Breena getting pregnant by Riker, NOW I have a B-Plot. How does Riker's ethics handle being on both sides of the issue. Also we have a reason to bring Troi in, which isn't a good idea per se, I've spent some effort writing her out of episodes wherever I can, but, Will's ex, empath and therapist is more or less perfect to serve as the expositionary voice connecting two disparate but interlaced issues.

[Yukaphile]

I'm glad TNG never touched up on abortion again past the REALLY bad episode most people don't remember. I hate to say this, but I feel this is one area modern Trek writers would do better - or at least be more in line with a progressive agenda.

[clearspira]

I'm glad TNG never touched up on abortion again past the REALLY bad episode most people don't remember. I hate to say this, but I feel this is one area modern Trek writers would do better - or at least be more in line with a progressive agenda.

This is STD, it'll be too progressive. Like ''THIS IS A GOOD THING AND HERE IS MY SERMON'' kind of progressive.

[Yukaphile]

True, but let's not pretend TNG couldn't get that way. Wouldn't make it good, but it makes it less, um... anti-woman than it could be.

[Killerbee256]

Some alternatives for the colonists in the original scenario:

Freeze some of their current cells and make copies from that. There are a LOT of cells in the body, and they can keep making copies from those cells as needed, instead of making copies of new copies each generation. They will run out of cells eventually, but a lot further down the line.

Ask for gametes from the crew, and then ask for more gametes every generation from the UFP at large. Children can then be produced by in vitro techniques or artificial insemination. "Computer, activate Emergency Inception Hologram. Soundtrack: Barry White."

Breed between themselves and ask the Federation for help correcting inbreeding-generated genetic errors at the embryo stage. The UFP frowns on genetic engineering, but not "corrective DNA resequencing for genetic disorders." Inbreeding is mostly a problem from getting two copies of one or more bad genes. Correct one of each of the problem genes and you're OK. Correct both of each set and your descendants won't inherit that problem from you, but the Feds might not want to go that far.

Ask for cloning volunteers from the Federation at large. The colonists won't turn into goo by the end of the episode, so the new DNA doesn't have to be from the Enterprise crew. Get the frozen cells collected and shipped by Ferengi Express or some humanitarian (sapient beingitarian?) organization.

Ask for new colonists to integrate into their colony. That's basically what they were doing anyway with cloned Rikers and Pulaskis. Unless they consider cloning to be a part of their cultural identity they can't sacrifice. I suppose this was more or less the solution they were forced into, anyway.

Any combination of any of the above.

As an added benefit, they get longer life-spans from some of these. The clones seem to be generated as adults, so they probably lose a couple decades. Though there is the downside of those awkward teenage years.

It was a silly problem from a sub-par episode, IMHO, though an episode with a few nice touches.

Depending on when they started cloning, why not clone those who died in the crash?

[TachyonDrift]

Depending on when they started cloning, why not clone those who died in the crash?

Well, damn, OK, that thought never occurred to me. That's some sharp eyed thinking there.

Yeah. That's, just, well, I mean I can write out why they couldn't in my head cannon easily enough, but that's a hell of a good shot at the episode as is.

That's why I go on forums, you have to wade through a load of loonies but you'll more often than not find a few incredibly salient points.

[FlynnTaggart]

Depending on when they started cloning, why not clone those who died in the crash?

Emotional distress maybe. Probably be pretty hard to deal with having some copy of your loved one who died around, they are early Earth colonists who were probably not Roddenberry's ideal humans who don't grieve. Thats assuming that any of the dead were viable, according to MA they suffered a hull breach while landing meaning the rest of the colonists might have been sucked out into space (which still sounds like one of the most horrifying ways to die) thus irretrievable (the Mariposans didn't seem to possess any form of space travel) and/or their DNA was scrambled by cosmic radiation/damaged by the cold vacuum of space assuming the breach happened when they were still in space.

The Mariposans clearly did not possess any way to modify genes to fix damaged DNA or the problems of "replicative fading" should not have been a problem.

Still a very darn good question. If the dead colonists had been viable still you would think they'd atleast try to get over their grief to either clone or use the DNA of the dead to help the colony grow rather then using clones from 5 people indefinitely.

[Darth Wedgius]

It was a silly problem from a sub-par episode, IMHO, though an episode with a few nice touches.

Not sure what the nice touches would be, I don't recall any, really. Well, maybe the 'you generally start at the top and work your way down' that's quite a nice line.

For the former, the high point for me was Picard reacting to an outrageous situation with humor rather than outrage. That was about it, I admit.

[Darth Wedgius]

Some alternatives for the colonists in the original scenario:

Freeze some of their current cells and make copies from that. There are a LOT of cells in the body, and they can keep making copies from those cells as needed, instead of making copies of new copies each generation. They will run out of cells eventually, but a lot further down the line.

Ask for gametes from the crew, and then ask for more gametes every generation from the UFP at large. Children can then be produced by in vitro techniques or artificial insemination. "Computer, activate Emergency Inception Hologram. Soundtrack: Barry White."

Breed between themselves and ask the Federation for help correcting inbreeding-generated genetic errors at the embryo stage. The UFP frowns on genetic engineering, but not "corrective DNA resequencing for genetic disorders." Inbreeding is mostly a problem from getting two copies of one or more bad genes. Correct one of each of the problem genes and you're OK. Correct both of each set and your descendants won't inherit that problem from you, but the Feds might not want to go that far.

Ask for cloning volunteers from the Federation at large. The colonists won't turn into goo by the end of the episode, so the new DNA doesn't have to be from the Enterprise crew. Get the frozen cells collected and shipped by Ferengi Express or some humanitarian (sapient beingitarian?) organization.

Ask for new colonists to integrate into their colony. That's basically what they were doing anyway with cloned Rikers and Pulaskis. Unless they consider cloning to be a part of their cultural identity they can't sacrifice. I suppose this was more or less the solution they were forced into, anyway.

Any combination of any of the above.

As an added benefit, they get longer life-spans from some of these. The clones seem to be generated as adults, so they probably lose a couple decades. Though there is the downside of those awkward teenage years.

It was a silly problem from a sub-par episode, IMHO, though an episode with a few nice touches.

Depending on when they started cloning, why not clone those who died in the crash?

I didn't think of that, and it's a really good idea. They don't even have to have cloning tech right away, just a way to preserve cells or the DNA in them.