Short Treks - "Runaway"

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

You'd have to be a pretty miserable person with a heart that's colored obsidian black to think Tilly is an annoying character.

I have told your name to the Entmoot and we have agreed that Tilly is not an orc.

[Makeshift Python]

The second season was a lot better, and had they started at that level I think we'd all be digging the show now, but as is that first season baggage is rough and impossible to get past. Like, TNG had a bad first season but it was *only* bad, it wasn't offputting.

That's one of the major drawbacks of having such a heavily serialized show. TNG could get away from its early mistakes because they were episodes that didn't matter. You can't ever do that when everything matters, like it does on Discovery: a single bad episode can taint a good plot if it contains something pivotal but stupid; even well-written developments fall apart when they hinge on that earlier stupidity. Discovery had more than just one of these mistakes, and so after it improves it still struggles because it's dragging all of that awfulness forward on display every episode instead of being able to leave it behind.

Considering how the second season ended, I'm gonna be very curious about how the show will move forward with its soft-reboot.

[RobbyB1982]

The second season was a lot better, and had they started at that level I think we'd all be digging the show now, but as is that first season baggage is rough and impossible to get past. Like, TNG had a bad first season but it was *only* bad, it wasn't offputting.

That's one of the major drawbacks of having such a heavily serialized show. TNG could get away from its early mistakes because they were episodes that didn't matter. You can't ever do that when everything matters, like it does on Discovery: a single bad episode can taint a good plot if it contains something pivotal but stupid; even well-written developments fall apart when they hinge on that earlier stupidity. Discovery had more than just one of these mistakes, and so after it improves it still struggles because it's dragging all of that awfulness forward on display every episode instead of being able to leave it behind.

Yeah, no matter what you do, you can't forget that Georgia is actually a galactic tyrant that committed genocide and ate people, but we're supposed to root for her? Or any of the stuff with the Klingons and the nonsnense of Ash's storyline including the graphic on screen rape sequence...
etc. etc.

Clean slate might help, might not, but a lot of season 2 was working to fix holes from the first season offhand. (Oh look, the Klingons have hair now. This is why we use screens instead of holograms. This is why Spock never mentions his sister. etc.) they really have their work cut out for them.

[Deledrius]

Considering how the second season ended, I'm gonna be very curious about how the show will move forward with its soft-reboot.

Same here. It still has the same issue, potentially, but it's possible that they left enough of it behind that most of that won't matter anymore. We'll see! I'm just hoping we don't end up watching some future dystopia. I guess that would be one way to differentiate themselves from the competition provided by The Orville.

Yeah, no matter what you do, you can't forget that Georgia is actually a galactic tyrant that committed genocide and ate people, but we're supposed to root for her? Or any of the stuff with the Klingons and the nonsnense of Ash's storyline including the graphic on screen rape sequence...
etc. etc.

Clean slate might help, might not, but a lot of season 2 was working to fix holes from the first season offhand. (Oh look, the Klingons have hair now. This is why we use screens instead of holograms. This is why Spock never mentions his sister. etc.) they really have their work cut out for them.

The dissonance with Georgiou really annoys and frustrates me. Given the storyline in Season 2, it really feels as if it's being set up to "redeem" her by softening her, but it's really hard to do that with someone who crossed the moral event horizon, shot it a few times, and then used it as a propulsion device for her genocidal capital ship. I expect they'll hope we've forgotten all that by the time they have Burnham warm up to her, even though she of all people should know the difference between this tyrant and the Captain she knew.

[BunBun299]

I haven't actually seen the short episode, just the review, and I've seen others online talk about it. Shouldn't Tilly be court martialed for not reporting an intruder on a top secret ship during war time? I mean, this isn't quite up there with assaulting your Captain, but it's still pretty bad.

[Makeshift Python]

There's no longer a war going on by the time of "Runaway".

[BunBun299]

Taking away the war time part only makes this slightly better. It's still an unauthorized person trespassing on a top secret ship, not being reported.

[Salamon2]

The dissonance with Georgiou really annoys and frustrates me. Given the storyline in Season 2, it really feels as if it's being set up to "redeem" her by softening her, but it's really hard to do that with someone who crossed the moral event horizon, shot it a few times, and then used it as a propulsion device for her genocidal capital ship. I expect they'll hope we've forgotten all that by the time they have Burnham warm up to her, even though she of all people should know the difference between this tyrant and the Captain she knew.

I think it's obvious that they're trying to make her the Garak of Discovery. The difference is, Garak's crimes are things we've never seen, and while we know he's done some unforgivable things, we also know that he as a character can be somewhat conflicted about what he's done and their effect on his people whom he obviously cares deeply about even if he's exiled from them. Further we weren't given a lot of Garak to begin with and he was presented as something of a mystery and a contradiction which made people want to get to know him.

With Garak it all came down to how he was presented. Further he had something he really cared about that was truly outside of himself and was invested in that showed there was more to his character.

The issue with the Empress is three-fold. We actually saw what she is capable of doing. We weren't given a good first impression of her as a character. And what she cares about outside of herself is shown to be Michael, which if you have a problem with Michael, makes it hard to care about the Empress.

It's obvious that the show runners, creators, and actress all really like the character. I think however that they might've suffered from Jar-Jar syndrome (though I would hardly call Georgiou Jar-Jar Binks) in that the creators are more excited by the character than they thought the audience would be.

Now, there was/is a strong possibility of saving the character. The banter she and Ashvoq had with one another over the intercoms in that one Season 2 episode showed a dynamic which was fun, engaging, and rather a fresh start for the character. Frankly I wish we'd gotten a bit more of that. It also was good for Ashvoq as Georgiou is a character he can bounce off of and not be all moody. That interaction alone made me actually look forward to the idea of a Section 31 show, and maybe it'll happen if Georgiou somehow ends up back in the past for some reason. Her teaching Lorell how to be an Empress made sense, even if it was crudely done.

However, where they were going with Georgiou suggesting mass genocide and everyone dismissing her ideas just didn't work in the sitcomy humor they were going for: "Let's kill everyone!" *cue laugh track* "Oh, Georgiou, aren't you silly" *laugh track continues*. That just was jarring. Would it have been funnier had Garak said it? Yeah, but then we didn't see what he was fully capable of.

A lot of story telling is knowing what to show and what to tell, it's not all about showing, making the mistake of showing too much can make some characters and stories unpalatable. There has to be a healthy balance between the two. Some things are unnecessary to show and are better told, other things are better shown rather than just told.

[Mecha82]

To me honest I can't see how anyone can like Empress even if they like Micheal. Way she is shown and what she is shown to be capable of doesn't really give any reason to like her and her caring about Micheal won't change that. Look I am one of those that don't have issue with Micheal but I can't stand Empress.

[Deledrius]

I think it's obvious that they're trying to make her the Garak of Discovery. The difference is, Garak's crimes are things we've never seen, and while we know he's done some unforgivable things, we also know that he as a character can be somewhat conflicted about what he's done and their effect on his people whom he obviously cares deeply about even if he's exiled from them. Further we weren't given a lot of Garak to begin with and he was presented as something of a mystery and a contradiction which made people want to get to know him.

Good point. I think you're onto something with their intent, and also why it flatly does not work with her.

the creators are more excited by the character than they thought the audience would be.

Maybe, but I see a lot of breathless, positive support for the character in places like Facebook and other Trek fan sites. A lot of it seems to be misplaced "I like Yeoh and I'll watch her do anything" sort of excitement, but there also appears to be a disturbingly large population of Trek fans who enjoy the character herself. I don't want to be down on people for liking what they like, but it really is jarring to me.