DS9: The Changing Face of Evil

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rickgriffin
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Re: DS9: The Changing Face of Evil

Post by rickgriffin »

Archanubis wrote:
CrypticMirror wrote:The changelings really do not have a good grasp of how psychology or warfare works, do they? They could have almost won there war right there, but wasted their Breen advantage by first letting them use up perfectly good resources and trained people on a suicide run that while would have a limited shock value only provides to let the Alliance know what is going on, then when they have the battle hardened core of the Alliance forces at their mercy they let them go back with not only a fair degree of intelligence and data on what happened, but also now have a need for revenge. Again, while there might be limited shock value in that, it would be far more damaging to the Alliance cause to deprive them of trained personnel and the scientific data they carried away with them. The Breen advantage was wasted on big statement pieces rather than actual military advantage.
I do sometimes wonder if this type of "terror tactic" is one that has worked for the Dominion in the past, at least on their side of the galaxy. It only stopped working when they came in contact with the races and powers of the Alpha Quadrant, but they kept trying because it was the only way they knew. And as others have said, the insulated nature of the changelings probably didn't help, especially as their only regular contact with "solids" are a couple of genetically altered and engineered races that are bred to by sycophants (the Vorta overtly, the Jem'Hadar more by action than words).
The thing with the dominion strategical situation really seems to be to become very strong on a couple of useful tactics. Jem Hadar for fighting. Vorta for expertise. Themselves for command and spycraft. And . . . that's about it, really. They ostensibly control HUNDREDS of worlds in the Gamma Quadrant, and although we see a lot of Gamma Quadrant races early on, once the war starts we don't see ANY of them. The Founders don't, as a rule, employ other races for strategic use. Why should they? They already have Jem Hadar for fighting and Vorta for expertise and themselves for spycraft, and those three are perfect for their roles.

Except, that makes their military might incredibly inflexible. They did not INVENT anything new to fight the Federation alliance, not even tactics. With a different system set up they could have had hundreds of worlds worth of scientists and doctors in their own territory working on new weapons, techniques, and the cure, but they don't. Just the Vorta. Who also, on top of that,are bred to be such toadying yesmen they lack requisite imagination that Federation scientists and engineers have by the truckload.

Which is why the alliance with the Breen. This seems like such a boon for the Dominion--the Breen have weapons that the Federation just aren't prepared to handle. It'll be like the Federation meeting the Jem Hadar for the first time all over again.
Except they forget that NOW the Federation is already well into this war, and despite straining for resources, by far have not come close to depleting them. The Breen bombing Earth would work only if was close to the Federation's final stronghold. But as much damage as the Dominion did, as important as Earth was, there were still likely hundreds of worlds in Federation space they never even got around to touching. Why would they expect the Federation to surrender?

Likely because they never faced any foe with the resources of the Federation alliance, not for a very long time. They've never had to fight off of their home turf. And they've never had to adjust their very powerful but nevertheless limited tri-pronged strategy. Bringing in the Breen seems like a smart play, but in the end it's just a repeat of the same, and it introduces complications they've never had to face before because they've never RELIED UPON an alliance before. (Cardassians unhappy with the new arrangement? Well that makes them enemies, we squash rebellions in the Dominion, didn't you hear?)
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Durandal_1707
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Re: DS9: The Changing Face of Evil

Post by Durandal_1707 »

Yeah, I still kinda wish they'd gone in the original direction they seemed to be going in Season 2 for the Dominion, where it looked like they were going to be this huge multi-cultural empire with the same sorts of strengths and abilities as the Federation, but with incompatible overriding values. An anti-Federation of sorts. Having it end up with just the same two races all the time (both of which aren't even "real," but genetically engineered, at that) was a big letdown. Of course, things got more interesting when the Cardassians ended up in the mix.
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Re: DS9: The Changing Face of Evil

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rickgriffin wrote:... they've never RELIED UPON an alliance before.
And I think you hit the heart of Dominion foreign affairs: they don't make alliances with other species, they conquer them. Sometimes that's by force, and sometimes it's more subtle and nefarious (as we kind of see happening with the Cardassians over the course of the series). Hell, before he starts his insurrection, Damar even warns his Breen counterpart that what happened to the Cardassians could happen to the Breen (and the Thot in question actually seems to consider this). It would have been interesting to see if the Dominion would have tried the same thing with the Breen if the series and war had continued.
Likely because they never faced any foe with the resources of the Federation alliance, not for a very long time. They've never had to fight off of their home turf.
You probably pointed out the Dominion's very problem with fighting the major powers of the Alpha and Beta quadrants in that last sentence - the Dominion is pretty much the only major power in the Gamma Quadrant. Sure, there are various smaller powers in the GQ, but none seem as powerful or hold as much territory as the Dominion. Compare that with the Federation, which shares its neighborhood with at least two militarily and politically equal powers - namely, the Klingons and Romulans - along with dozens of smaller powers that, while probably not holding as much territory, are definitely on the same technological level. "Sandy" even mentions in "The Search" that the Alpha Quadrant seems a bit "chaotic" compared to the Dominion's neck of the galaxy - but it doesn't seem to enter her or any of the Vortas' heads that that "chaos" also breeds advancements in technology and weaponry at a much faster rate than their ordered stagnation. And that's not getting into the Alpha and Beta quadrant powers' fear of Borg raids, especially after Wolf 359 (not sure the Dominion was ever aware of the Borg - outside the pilot and a brief mention in S5, the Borg were hardly ever mentions on DS9).

And before any one asks, no, I don't consider the Cardassians to be on the same level as the Federation, Romulans, and especially Klingons. Sure, the Cardassians talk a good game and the Federation does consider them something of a threat, but I think once the Klingons attacked them, it was clear the Cardassians, on their own, were little more than a paper tiger (though losing the Obsidian Order and a regime change definitely didn't help).
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Re: DS9: The Changing Face of Evil

Post by Megabob452 »

Archanubis wrote:And that's not getting into the Alpha and Beta quadrant powers' fear of Borg raids, especially after Wolf 359 (not sure the Dominion was ever aware of the Borg - outside the pilot and a brief mention in S5, the Borg were hardly ever mentions on DS9).
This sort of thing makes me wish Voyager could have done special two-parter involving a wormhole flinging them to the Gamma/Delta quadrant boundary, just to see the Dominion fighting the Borg in an endless war of attrition, until they get back to the wormhole and return to the Delta quadrant proper before it collapses.
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CareerKnight
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Re: DS9: The Changing Face of Evil

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Durandal_1707 wrote:Having it end up with just the same two races all the time (both of which aren't even "real," but genetically engineered, at that) was a big letdown. Of course, things got more interesting when the Cardassians ended up in the mix.
I wish we had gotten a fourth Dominion race that was responsible for the engineering/science part of the empire. It would have helped flesh out the Dominion more even if they were rarely seen and it's kind of hard to think of the Vorta being that effective at either one of them considering they have bad eyesight.
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Madner Kami
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Re: DS9: The Changing Face of Evil

Post by Madner Kami »

CareerKnight wrote:
Durandal_1707 wrote:Having it end up with just the same two races all the time (both of which aren't even "real," but genetically engineered, at that) was a big letdown. Of course, things got more interesting when the Cardassians ended up in the mix.
I wish we had gotten a fourth Dominion race that was responsible for the engineering/science part of the empire. It would have helped flesh out the Dominion more even if they were rarely seen and it's kind of hard to think of the Vorta being that effective at either one of them considering they have bad eyesight.
It's implied that the Jem'Hadar are responsible for the building and maintaining of the Dominion's military machinery. Of course this doesn't exclude the use of slave-labour or client-race-workforces when it comes to intially building ships and weaponry, but it certainly would explain a lot that can be observed about the Dominion.
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FakeGeekGirl
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Re: DS9: The Changing Face of Evil

Post by FakeGeekGirl »

Megabob452 wrote:
This sort of thing makes me wish Voyager could have done special two-parter involving a wormhole flinging them to the Gamma/Delta quadrant boundary, just to see the Dominion fighting the Borg in an endless war of attrition, until they get back to the wormhole and return to the Delta quadrant proper before it collapses.
That sounds perilously close to interesting and as we all know, Voyager is where potential goes to die.
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Re: DS9: The Changing Face of Evil

Post by FaxModem1 »

Madner Kami wrote:
CareerKnight wrote:
Durandal_1707 wrote:Having it end up with just the same two races all the time (both of which aren't even "real," but genetically engineered, at that) was a big letdown. Of course, things got more interesting when the Cardassians ended up in the mix.
I wish we had gotten a fourth Dominion race that was responsible for the engineering/science part of the empire. It would have helped flesh out the Dominion more even if they were rarely seen and it's kind of hard to think of the Vorta being that effective at either one of them considering they have bad eyesight.
It's implied that the Jem'Hadar are responsible for the building and maintaining of the Dominion's military machinery. Of course this doesn't exclude the use of slave-labour or client-race-workforces when it comes to intially building ships and weaponry, but it certainly would explain a lot that can be observed about the Dominion.
Yes, this is why I found episodes like "To the Death" a bit tedious. The Jem'Hadar and the Vorta aren't that interesting, and since we don't see enough of the Dominion outside of them, exploring their culture seems more like a monotonous chore. Examining the Jem'Hadar is like examining a piece of machinery. Each piece might have a bit of difference to it from the rest, wear and tear from their own personal use, but they are all, for the most part, identical.

This makes them, story-wise, better as a force to react to, than to watch. The writers even realized this after a while, with their last real attempt to flesh them out in "This Little Ship", but by then, it was too little, too late. Jem Hadar are boring video game mooks, meant to rush at the enemy and either kill everything, or be cannon fodder for the heroes. We had known this since "The Abandoned", and there was no real point in being concerned with what happened to them. This is similar to why the Orks in the Lord of the Rings trilogy were barely touched upon. They are meant to be a faceless force of evil, and exploring them just won't work unless you want to make them more than flesh robots willing to fight for their God. And there's only so much you can do with stories about that.
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Durandal_1707
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Re: DS9: The Changing Face of Evil

Post by Durandal_1707 »

^ yup
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