DS9: Tacking into the Wind

[FaxModem1]

We also have to remember that being on the council is due to having a powerful family. How much wealth, property, ships, men at your command, etc. You also have to have a penis, as women aren't allowed on the council. Becoming a member of the Council seems to happen one of two ways: you are appointed by the Chancellor, or you challenge your way on to it.

One requires friends in high places, no matter how honorable or dishonorable you are. The other requires skill at fighting. House of Quark showed us that a duel to the death was even required for their small claims court, no matter how valid the evidence. As long as you are stronger than the other guy, a Klingon could get his way with any sort of conduct, as long as he could beat up the other guy.

Generation after generation of that, and of course corruption will rule the day.

[Wargriffin]

Gowron must have taken almost getting killed by Worf last time to heart, since he's much more of a match in this fight

also the episode that smacked the taste out of the Klingon fans mouths

____

The issue is the people who play the game best... are generally the ambitious/ power hungry... so guys like Duras and Gowron would be more common then say guys like Worf or Martok

Essentially any type of change requires well as worf says to Martok
"Great men do not seek power... they have power thrust upon them."

Yes Worf is putting someone who will serve the Empire first over his own due to Worf's own moral code 'which sadly none of the other Klingons share

Hell the whole fiasco with Worf's dishonor was due to the current Chancellor choosing to do something dishonorable cause it would serve the Empire in the long run


I know people hate or are loathe to admit it but sometimes... the old rot has to be burned away, The empire probably Needs to collapse so that it can be reborn anew

To bleed that old bad blood away

[Dînadan]

It's possible the corruption is actually because of the Empire beginning to collapse; contrast the Klingons of TNG with those of Star Trek VI. Politically (and just politically; in terms of fighting a war they could be underhanded and pragmatic when needed), the late TOS Klingons act more honourably for the most part than the TNG era ones (barring some exceptions such as General Chang's faction that wanted to prolong the war with the Federation instead of choosing peace like Gorkon).

In fact, iirc it's specifically stated by Spock that the best minds in the Federation predict that the fallout of Praxis' destruction will be the eventual collapse of the Empire. In light of that it's plausible that the corruption is a consequence of that collapse and the major houses' attempts to prevent that. In light of this, it's a pity Enterprise continued to Flanderise them and make them more barbaric and more Space Viking; if they'd made them more like the TOS Klingons, or even pushed them as far in the other direction from TOS as the TNG ones were, it would have made them more interesting and would have helped highlight the decline the Klingons were facing as a consequence of Praxis.

[FaxModem1]

It's possible the corruption is actually because of the Empire beginning to collapse; contrast the Klingons of TNG with those of Star Trek VI. Politically (and just politically; in terms of fighting a war they could be underhanded and pragmatic when needed), the late TOS Klingons act more honourably for the most part than the TNG era ones (barring some exceptions such as General Chang's faction that wanted to prolong the war with the Federation instead of choosing peace like Gorkon).

In fact, iirc it's specifically stated by Spock that the best minds in the Federation predict that the fallout of Praxis' destruction will be the eventual collapse of the Empire. In light of that it's plausible that the corruption is a consequence of that collapse and the major houses' attempts to prevent that. In light of this, it's a pity Enterprise continued to Flanderise them and make them more barbaric and more Space Viking; if they'd made them more like the TOS Klingons, or even pushed them as far in the other direction from TOS as the TNG ones were, it would have made them more interesting and would have helped highlight the decline the Klingons were facing as a consequence of Praxis.

Remember what Archer's lawyer said:

"You didn't believe all Klingons were soldiers?"
"I guess I did."
"My father was a teacher. My mother, a biologist at the university. They encouraged me to take up the law. Now, all young people want to do is to take up weapons as soon as they can hold them. They're told there is honor in victory – any victory. What honor is there in a victory over a weaker opponent? Had Duras destroyed that ship, he would have been lauded as a hero of the Empire for murdering helpless refugees. We were a great society, not so long ago. When honor was earned through integrity and acts of true courage, not senseless bloodshed."
"For thousands of years, my people had similar problems. We fought three world wars that almost destroyed us. Whole generations were nearly wiped out."
"What changed?"
"A few courageous people began to realize... they could make a difference."
- Kolos and Archer

They are slowly falling apart as a people, and not much is being done about it.

This is probably why Worf saw the need for the Kahless clone, someone to help bring back the spirit of the original empire. But by 'Way of the Warrior', it seems that he got sideswiped and ignored, as Gowron did whatever he wanted, regardless of what Kahless thought.

[dief25]

Is anyone else disappointed that Chuck missed his chance to say, "And Gowron is...dead. Okay." ?

[Dînadan]

I don't think the Khaless clone really had any power to begin with; unless I'm misremembering the episode, the only reason Gowron acquiesces to installing him as Emperor is that he'd be a symbolic figurehead with no real political clout.

As for the conversation you quoted, while that does play into the decline of the Klingons, the problem is, as far as I can recall, that's the only thing mentioned in Enterprise, and all their other appearances in that show are of a state of even greater collapse than they were at the end of the TNG era, so it comes off as they were collapsing culturally, pulled their shit together, then collapsed again. While I suppose that's not out of the realm of possibility (with whatever changed between Enterprise and TOS being just a flimsy 'bandaid' that ripped off when Praxis exploded), there's something less than satisfying about that and personally that doesn't work for me; I'd have far rather seen them as more nuanced and diverse during Enterprise with the greater focus on Warriors only just starting to take over (well, actually I'd have rather they not have shown up at all and have had first contact happen after the Earth-Romulan War but that's another discussion).

[Admiral X]

I think that's because the writers viewed them more an more through the same lens that pop culture viewed them through.

[Archanubis]

Interesting that Chuck brought up the potential long term issues with Martok as chancellor. While not strictly cannon, the timeline for Star Trek Online mentions that Martok would many years later be challenged by the Son of Lursa from the house of Duras (it was established she was pregnant near the end of TNG so it's likely her son was born before the events of 'Generations') that son would defeat Martok and the Duras Family would indeed rule the empire and surprise surprise, war would break out between them and the federation. Worf at the time was a general in the Empire and Martok's right hand man, after Martok died, his son Drax became head of the family and Worf now advises him as they're now in a Blood feud with the Duras to reclaim the empire and end the war. So in a way, there were some good times during Martok's reign as chancellor but a McGuffin from late TNG would come back to mess things up.

J'mpok kills Martok and becomes chancellor but he has no relation to Duras as far as I can tell. Ja'rod is Lursa's son and one of J'mpok's main allies. Klingons ending the Khitomer Accords in STO mirrors the situation in DS9 except this time the Klingons have more reason to believe there are shapeshifting infiltrators threatening the quadrant, they are proven right, and this time instead of a shapeshifter in the Empire provoking conflict to break up the Klingon Federation alliance, instead they are in the Federation pushing for non action and downplaying the threat to drive the two apart.

Part of that is because Star Trek: Online does not consider any of the book series as part of its own canon. Granted, the game does feature the Vesta-class, and cherry picks certain events, but it seems to completely disregard the I.K.S. Gorkon "mini-series" and other Klingon associated tales. E.g., Sirella is killed in the book series, but alive and well by STO's 2409-2410 timeline. STO also has Martok, discovered alive in the mission "Brushfire," (long story) refer to Rodek as a "son of Mogh," which suggests that he's not aware Kurn's identity was changed, something Worf told him about in the book A Burning House.

[Steve]

Yes, the books are their own EU and the game's plot isn't built around it, although it's clear that the people who made STO included fans of the books given the presence of Mackenzie Calhoun on K7 as a PvP mission giver, the references to the Da Vinci in connection to the Starfleet Corps of Engineers, "Kai Kira" being name-dropped, etc. And that's not counting the many, many references to Diane Duane's "Rihannsu" novels about the Romulans. Ship names, system and planet names, and the occasional reference to mnhei'sahe all come from that source, plus New Romulus being called "Mol'Rihan".

Throwing the Vesta in as a recognizable ship from the novel EU was a logical step since fans of the books would be looking for it, and it allowed for an interesting mechanic and playstyle set (Starfleet science ship with cannons and a hanger space).

[Rocketboy1313]

I have never been a fan of the Klingons. I agreed with Ezri completely. The Klingons are the sort of dickheads who bang on and on about exceptionalism and honor and whatever else makes them feel like big men, but they are mostly just backstabbing and macho to the point of laughable stupidity. A culture as they are presented would not make it to space, and would have been knocked out of the stars long ago, like the Dilgar from "Babylon 5".

I should also point out that "Star Trek Online" perhaps is overly disposed to conflict because it is an MMO. Whenever the writers had two directions to chose from they would pick the one that had more possibilities for adventures in the context of factional gaming. So the idea that Martok lost out years later and the Empire is in Turmoil is a possibility, but to point to it as an eventuality or reason that Worf was somehow wrong in this instance is not really fair to the characters or show. It is projecting the worst possible outcome not necessarily the best or most likely.