DS9 - Tribunal

[FaxModem1]

I'd dispute chuck saying order without justice being worse than chaos because we in the developed world simply have no idea what real chaos is like. There are reasons why people bow to offering tyrannical order is things get bad enough, and that's because it's preferable than being at the mercy of the monsters of the abyss.

I find this issue particularly annoying with libertarian and socialist types who look on the entirety of civilization until about a century ago as being thousands of years of exploitation of the masses by elites that ignores the masses choices in such matters, and that said choice wasn't entirely negative. Most free farmers in Europe around 1000 willingly signed up to become serfs precisely because of the legal protections offered to them that they otherwise lacked, and that wasn't them making a bad decision, that only sounds that way from a modern perspective that comes with luxuries like the abundance of firearms being back centuries that afford people protects unimaginable to people a millennia ago.

Things like the masses lacking education, the ability to read, and having religious figures lecturing you on why the local man in fine robes and living in a castle or palace deserves to be there because of his birth probably helped too. That turning against such a man was a slight against God itself, because said figure was ordained. Other societies in history elected their rulers, such as the Norse, and would kick them out if they weren't doing their jobs right. Athens is famous for having votes among the citizenry(sucks if you were a slave or a woman though).

This isn't just Libertarian or Socialist thinking, this goes all the way back to Voltaire and the Enlightenment, and how critical thinking about society transformed society. This is why they started having revolutions and reformations of society in the first place.

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Anyway, the Cardassian system is interesting, in that they grabbed onto order so hard because their previous government was so inadequate, that they felt that having the Cardassian military and the Cardassian surveillance organization unionize would be the go-to answer for all of their problems. And on some level, it does work. They have a military, they are able to feed their populace, the riots have stopped. Never you mind that people are disappeared for speaking out against the state. Never you mind that the people live in fear their whole lives. Never you mind that people are tortured just so that they'll be broken. The Cardassian system has order, and that's all that matters.

It's no wonder that there was a growing dissident civilian movement in the system, including those in the military leadership itself, and they eventually had a civilian uprising. The destruction of the Obsidian Order by the Dominion, in my opinion, only accelerated the civilian revolution, not caused it. It's why I rather enjoy a lot of the work in the Beta-canon, showing how much the Cardassian civilization has reformed due to all the hard work they've done rebuilding, showing that the Cardassia from the DS9 era is dead and buried.

[Nealithi]

So thoughts both on the show and Chuck's closing statements.
The show brings us that the Cardassians legal system has flaws. The flaw is it is easily manipulated. Put evidence in place and make someone guilty to push an agenda. Cardassian law is basically the rules of elementary school. You got caught fighting, disrupting class etc. There is instant punishment. The law/teacher simply puts the punishment out instantly. No need for trial or further investigation.
But what of the bully that throws a punch when the teacher's back is turned so the only thing seen is the retaliation? That is manipulating the simple system meant to create order.

On Chuck's comments. I have not found a news source I fully agree with. Too many seem to pander at extremes that I feel I am getting nothing but point of views than facts. Scary thing is I think the closest thing to facts to make my own judgements comes from Chuck.
Scary huh?
But most movie reviews or his lectures on a topic he investigates as best he can, and presents his findings and what he has taken away from that. I find this enlightening. And because of this evidence, I often, but not always, agree with him. Maybe his way is very compelling to me because a good argument is better to me than a pat answer.
That said I think there are fundamental flaws in the justice system. Like DA's will hammer for more convictions on election years. Why plea bargain so someone spends two years in prison instead of twenty even if they are innocent? Because it makes the prosecutors look good and closes a case. Did they catch the actual violator? No, but it looks good on the record. Because other elected officials demand tangible results. Our legal system is No Child Left Behind but about crime. Better to create a passing grade than to actually do the work. Because the metrics look better.
And there have been other methods of altering the metrics. Oh that store robbery was not armed robbery because we could not prove there was a gun. Or it was petty theft because it was five dollars under the limits. Major crime then goes down on paper, while minor crimes explode. But the major crimes are what politicians and the news are looking at. Because it is sexier and sex sells.

Why am I not on a street corner yelling to change the system? Because I know it needs to be changed. But I am not sure to what. Maybe I am a coward. But I don't want to make things worse.
And to paraphrase Chuck. "But that is just my opinion."

[bronnt]

To keep the focus on the episode and not the current issues legal discussion (I've had my fill of that elsewhere).

I was a bit taken aback by the Federation's limp-wristed response in this episode to what was a clear act of war. Given that there's a DMZ, and that it's unlikely that O'Brien's vacation would be taking him IN to the DMZ, it means that Cardassians sent warships across a De-militarized zone to abduct a Federation citizen.

And not only is he a Federation Citizen, he's a member of Starfleet, and they're going to publicly execute him on phony charges. Seriously, act of war. If they're willing to be so blatant about it this time, there's nothing to stop them from repeatedly doing this in the future.

So what's the Federation response? "Well, we don't normally patrol the edge of the DMZ, but now we have 3 ships there." In response to a blatant act of war. Imagine if North Koreans sent the army across the 38th parallel to abduct a South Korean citizen or a member of the South Korean military. They wouldn't just start mobilizing, there would be jets in the air over Pyongyang. And it wouldn't "embarrass" the US or South Koreans to learn that this person was found guilty.

[Thebestoftherest]

To keep the focus on the episode and not the current issues legal discussion (I've had my fill of that elsewhere).

I was a bit taken aback by the Federation's limp-wristed response in this episode to what was a clear act of war. Given that there's a DMZ, and that it's unlikely that O'Brien's vacation would be taking him IN to the DMZ, it means that Cardassians sent warships across a De-militarized zone to abduct a Federation citizen.

And not only is he a Federation Citizen, he's a member of Starfleet, and they're going to publicly execute him on phony charges. Seriously, act of war. If they're willing to be so blatant about it this time, there's nothing to stop them from repeatedly doing this in the future.

So what's the Federation response? "Well, we don't normally patrol the edge of the DMZ, but now we have 3 ships there." In response to a blatant act of war. Imagine if North Koreans sent the army across the 38th parallel to abduct a South Korean citizen or a member of the South Korean military. They wouldn't just start mobilizing, there would be jets in the air over Pyongyang. And it wouldn't "embarrass" the US or South Koreans to learn that this person was found guilty.

Agree there, felt the Worf trial was done better.

[Darth Wedgius]

To keep the focus on the episode and not the current issues legal discussion (I've had my fill of that elsewhere).

I was a bit taken aback by the Federation's limp-wristed response in this episode to what was a clear act of war. Given that there's a DMZ, and that it's unlikely that O'Brien's vacation would be taking him IN to the DMZ, it means that Cardassians sent warships across a De-militarized zone to abduct a Federation citizen.

And not only is he a Federation Citizen, he's a member of Starfleet, and they're going to publicly execute him on phony charges. Seriously, act of war. If they're willing to be so blatant about it this time, there's nothing to stop them from repeatedly doing this in the future.

So what's the Federation response? "Well, we don't normally patrol the edge of the DMZ, but now we have 3 ships there." In response to a blatant act of war. Imagine if North Koreans sent the army across the 38th parallel to abduct a South Korean citizen or a member of the South Korean military. They wouldn't just start mobilizing, there would be jets in the air over Pyongyang. And it wouldn't "embarrass" the US or South Koreans to learn that this person was found guilty.

I'm not sure. North Korea killed some American soldiers, without any military reprisal anything like that. Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_axe_murder_incident

In general, I think the U.S. wouldn't go up against North Korea for the kidnapping of one American soldier. If China wasn't there, maybe. IIRC, the killing of American soldiers was used as a justification for the invasion of Panama, though. Not having China backing Panama might have helped.

It's a legit cause for a war, but I think most governments would rather one man died vs. several dozen or more.

[Darth Wedgius]

Antifa isn't a group, it's a tactic. Also, you may want to refresh your memory on what fascism is.


Edit: I didn't mean to be so dismissive, it's just that there's a lot of misinformation being spread about antifa and the left in general and I just wanted to clear things up if I could.

Openly fascist groups, such as the Proud Boys and the English Defense League are intentionally sparking violence with counter-protests to manipulate the way that people see their opponents. Because such a premium is placed on civility, they are trying to provoke antifa reactions so they can claim they didn't throw the first punch.

Antifa action is limited to the direct opposition of fascist organizing. This can include violent action, and if you have a problem with that, your concerns are legitimate, but what we are talking about is not a coup against the current government, or a plan to eliminate anyone who shares different views. What we are talking about, is being willing to punch Nazis. And again, there is a debate to be had about the validity or effectiveness of such a tactic, but that is what it is; nothing else.

And if you're hearing that antifa organizing is happening for any reason other than the direct opposition of currently active and open fascist groups, you are being lied to.

Antifa has websites and social media presences. Tactics don't have websites.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've seen Antifa tactics including property damage. According to Wikipedia, there are about 400 Nazis in the U.S. And I'm pretty sure most of the people I've seen Antifa oppose have not been advocating for anything authoritarian.

Antifa has also suppressed the freedom of speech for people, haven't they? People who were not advocating anything authoritarian, AFAIK.

I have also not heard the Proud Boys advocating for authoritarianism. Or white supremacy, or racism of any sort.

What definition of "fascist" are you using?

[Fianna]

The DMZ only covers the borders between Federaton space and Cardassian space. There are loads of other polities in the galaxy not directly affiliated with either of those governments. If the O'Briens were passing through, say, Breen space or Ferengi space at the time of the arrest, then the Cardassians wouldn't be violating their treaty with the Federation by going after them.

[Darth Wedgius]

A few thoughts regarding SFDebris' thoughts.

(1) Chaos isn't all that stable. You get strong men, and I don't mean that in the positive sense.

(2) Obviously (1) cannot be used to excuse all the problems in the system because "chaos would be worse."

(3) There will be problems in the system as long as there are people in the system. Taking individual judgement out of it will reduce biases, but you'll always have people countering, "When has justice ever been as simple as a rulebook?"

For my part, I like taking individual judgement out of it where possible, with the acknowledgement that a cop isn't going to be able to go through 500 rules whenever someone points something that looks like a gun at him. I just spent a few minutes looking up whether it was " SFDebris' " or " SFDebris's ", and nobody would have shot me if I'd made the wrong choice.

And (4) this is why I like the states having a lot of autonomy from the federal government in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laboratories_of_democracy . Obviously "states rights" has a down side. As the eminently quotable Thomas Sowell notes, "There are no solutions; only trade-offs."

[Fianna]

Antifa isn't a group, it's a tactic. Also, you may want to refresh your memory on what fascism is.


Edit: I didn't mean to be so dismissive, it's just that there's a lot of misinformation being spread about antifa and the left in general and I just wanted to clear things up if I could.

Openly fascist groups, such as the Proud Boys and the English Defense League are intentionally sparking violence with counter-protests to manipulate the way that people see their opponents. Because such a premium is placed on civility, they are trying to provoke antifa reactions so they can claim they didn't throw the first punch.

Antifa action is limited to the direct opposition of fascist organizing. This can include violent action, and if you have a problem with that, your concerns are legitimate, but what we are talking about is not a coup against the current government, or a plan to eliminate anyone who shares different views. What we are talking about, is being willing to punch Nazis. And again, there is a debate to be had about the validity or effectiveness of such a tactic, but that is what it is; nothing else.

And if you're hearing that antifa organizing is happening for any reason other than the direct opposition of currently active and open fascist groups, you are being lied to.

Antifa has websites and social media presences. Tactics don't have websites.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've seen Antifa tactics including property damage. According to Wikipedia, there are about 400 Nazis in the U.S. And I'm pretty sure most of the people I've seen Antifa oppose have not been advocating for anything authoritarian.

Antifa has also suppressed the freedom of speech for people, haven't they? People who were not advocating anything authoritarian, AFAIK.

I have also not heard the Proud Boys advocating for authoritarianism. Or white supremacy, or racism of any sort.

What definition of "fascist" are you using?

People can label themselves or their actions as "antifa", or have that label applied to them by others, but there's no one with a trademark on the term, no organization deciding who is or is not a member. There are groups that are antifa, but there is no Antifa group; the same way that there are liberal groups and conservative groups, but there's not a Liberal Group and Conservative Group

That's also something to keep in mind when you ask how many Nazis there are in America. If you look just at the American Nazi Party, then yeah, that's a pretty small number. But they're hardly the only Nazi organization in America; even if you only look at groups that openly identify themselves as Nazis, they're far from the largest. And there are plenty of other groups and individuals who, while they reject the Nazi label, still argue for many of the same beliefs.

As for the Proud Boys . . . well, its founder/leader has openly identified himself as a "western chauvinist".

[CrypticMirror]

As for the Proud Boys . . . well, its founder/leader has openly identified himself as a "western chauvinist".

I still say that "proud boys" sounds like something a toddler would say after going to the potty by himself the first time.