Beelzquill wrote: ↑Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:18 am
Is our humanity our cells? Is it our bones, or is it the memories, personalities, and our ideas? I personally don't know if mind uploading would be a "copy and paste" job or not. Actually, wouldn't it be "copy, delete original, then paste copy? It's why I know that if Star Trek transporters were to ever come into reality I definitely wouldn't use except for a last resort.
Again though, don't we replace every cell in our bodies over a few year period, making us essentially organically not the people we were born as?
Ultimately these are more than just fanciful questions; the technology to do such things probably is not that far away. Perhaps not our lifetimes but soon.
I suspect though that once we reach that point it'll be considered bigoted to even discuss the topic - they are human and how dare you say otherwise. On the one hand, yeah, no one wants to be told that they are less than human. On the other, if we really are killing people on a mass scale, we kind of need to know.
I do feel compelled to point out there's been plenty of hints throughout the series that the star trek computers may be self aware to some degree or another. Controlling flight, giving birth, gel packs, having sex with Giordi "rolls eyes". So the question of whether holograms can be considered sentient/sapient when the computer itself isn't needs to address the question of whether the computer is and is just bounded by its own restrictions and programs a self awareness that only comes out in rare cases like Moriarty.
I too would be interested in seeing this discussion addressed to other series like Red Dwarf and their holograms.
The question people seem mostly to be ignoring in my opinion is not whether holograms are sapient but WHY was the EMH MK 1's assigned to hand mine Dilithium. This can't be an efficient means of doing so especially with the technology available you'd have to install holographic emitters in every single mine shaft to allow them to operate there at least till the mobile emitter became common place. Add to that these are medical programs not mining programs this is not an area where they have a valid skill set
So why were they assigned to this job as opposed to just being deleted in batch lots? If they aren't self aware and sapient then deleting them is no more harmful than deleting any other hologram yet starfleet didn't delete them when they became obsolete, they didn't even turn them off. Instead they assigned them to perform other tasks while leaving them running. The only reason I can see is that they are considered sapient beings who deletion would be the equivilent of killing, or bad writing.
Beelzquill wrote: ↑Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:18 am
Again though, don't we replace every cell in our bodies over a few year period, making us essentially organically not the people we were born as?
Except there's a constant shift and renewal going on as we live moment to moment. To put it one way, there is a "tradition" of ones self being maintained that is distinct from an abrupt arbitrary event like copying someone's mind or using a matter disintegrator to move around with.
Theseus' ship remains Theseus' ship because of the constant maintenance one it that separates it from making an entirely new ship of the same design and saying it's the same one. Some might say it doesn't matter, but I'd say that shows more the opinion of someone that comes from modernist culture that is dissuaded of traditionalism.
Beastro wrote: ↑Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:20 pm
Except there's a constant shift and renewal going on as we live moment to moment. To put it one way, there is a "tradition" of ones self being maintained that is distinct from an abrupt arbitrary event like copying someone's mind or using a matter disintegrator to move around with.
Theseus' ship remains Theseus' ship because of the constant maintenance one it that separates it from making an entirely new ship of the same design and saying it's the same one. Some might say it doesn't matter, but I'd say that shows more the opinion of someone that comes from modernist culture that is dissuaded of traditionalism.
So would you say if someone is going through gene tailoring, where the series of genes that organically compose us are altered or "tailored" to that person's desires, that they are still the same person? If Theseus' ship was gradually replaced with metal (I don't know if that's even possible but humor me) I certainly wouldn't count it as Theseus' ship anymore, though I would strangely still count it if all the original parts were replaced by identical parts.
Now you have brain copying and cloning in the mix.
As far as a second 'copy' of me is concerned. I rather agree with a sentiment expressed in Schlock Mercenary. Kaff Tagon died saving his crew from some nasty boarders. They had a complete memory from seventeen (i think) minutes prior to his death. As well as his full DNA and build. So they made a clone and dropped in the memories. He is both the Kaff Tagon they knew and someone else. As he put it. It was like having a twin that had shared every memory. Then the first one died and this one began making decisions.
Note the memories could also be used to repair and restore minds and memories lost to severe head trauma.
But. I think just taking the 'software' that is our minds and running them on a computer will not produce a second 'me'. Because how we think is not just the brain. It is every hormone and reactions to the environment acting on our 'hardware' as well. We would have to simulate every gland in the body to get a proper running human mind.
Now bonus point question. They make that hardware. A computer capable of running a human mind with artificial glands. Is it ethical to experiment with that mind? Say see how my mind would react if it had female hormones as opposed to male ones?
Male and female brains have physical differences so you'd need to factor that into your experiment. Not to mention the social side is the mind lodged in the equivilent of a female brain or just exposed to female hormones, is it treated as male or female?
The problem isn't the sapient nature of the hologram its the completely alien nature. Communication requires common foundation of experience and when you have something that doesn't even breathe you have something so alien that real communication and especially real trust is impossible.
Beastro wrote: ↑Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:20 pm
Except there's a constant shift and renewal going on as we live moment to moment. To put it one way, there is a "tradition" of ones self being maintained that is distinct from an abrupt arbitrary event like copying someone's mind or using a matter disintegrator to move around with.
Theseus' ship remains Theseus' ship because of the constant maintenance one it that separates it from making an entirely new ship of the same design and saying it's the same one. Some might say it doesn't matter, but I'd say that shows more the opinion of someone that comes from modernist culture that is dissuaded of traditionalism.
So would you say if someone is going through gene tailoring, where the series of genes that organically compose us are altered or "tailored" to that person's desires, that they are still the same person? If Theseus' ship was gradually replaced with metal (I don't know if that's even possible but humor me) I certainly wouldn't count it as Theseus' ship anymore, though I would strangely still count it if all the original parts were replaced by identical parts.
I'd still look on that as abrupt and arbitrary even if it is strictly speaking "organic".
An equivalent in naval terms would be the Austro-Hungarian "rebuilds" that were entirely new ships in the late 19th Century. Their navy did a con job because they simply could not get funding for new ships and only for refits.
In the early 1870s, the head of the Austro-Hungarian Navy, Friedrich von Pöck, repeatedly tried to secure funding from parliament for new ironclad warships, but the government, preoccupied with rebuilding the Austro-Hungarian Army after its crushing defeat at the Battle of Königgrätz in 1866, refused to divert funds to the navy's budget for new ships.[1] Reconstruction projects were uncontroversial, however, and so Pöck requested funds to rebuild the old Kaiser Max-class ironclads, intending instead to use the money to build new ships. The new vessels would be built to similar dimensions as the earlier vessels, and some material, including the engines, armor plate, and various fittings, would be reused to save money. To complete the deception, he assigned the ships the same names, which has led to some confusion in subsequent histories.[2][3]
Part of the confusion owes to the records in the Austrian state and military archives, which refer to the ships as simple conversions, not new constructions.[4] The design for the new ships was prepared by Chief Engineer Josef von Romako, who had also designed the earlier Kaiser Maxes. The "reconstructions" proved to be very economical, with the three new ships costing as much as had been spent on the ironclad Erzherzog Albrecht.[5]
The US Navy in the 1880s did the exact same thing to get funding, only they created entirely new and fairly advanced ships that only preserved the original names.
Really enjoyed this look at Holographic ethics, thank you Chuck for reposting and updating the video.
Senko wrote: ↑Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:04 am
I do feel compelled to point out there's been plenty of hints throughout the series that the star trek computers may be self aware to some degree or another. Controlling flight, giving birth, gel packs, having sex with Giordi "rolls eyes". So the question of whether holograms can be considered sentient/sapient when the computer itself isn't needs to address the question of whether the computer is and is just bounded by its own restrictions and programs a self awareness that only comes out in rare cases like Moriarty.
I too would be interested in seeing this discussion addressed to other series like Red Dwarf and their holograms.
The question people seem mostly to be ignoring in my opinion is not whether holograms are sapient but WHY was the EMH MK 1's assigned to hand mine Dilithium. This can't be an efficient means of doing so especially with the technology available you'd have to install holographic emitters in every single mine shaft to allow them to operate there at least till the mobile emitter became common place. Add to that these are medical programs not mining programs this is not an area where they have a valid skill set
So why were they assigned to this job as opposed to just being deleted in batch lots? If they aren't self aware and sapient then deleting them is no more harmful than deleting any other hologram yet starfleet didn't delete them when they became obsolete, they didn't even turn them off. Instead they assigned them to perform other tasks while leaving them running. The only reason I can see is that they are considered sapient beings who deletion would be the equivilent of killing, or bad writing.
I think there might be some good reasons for using Holograms for Mining, they might have had something similar to the Holographic Projector that was beamed down to the planet in "Flesh and Blood", and not only with the factor of Holograms not being hindered by thing that humans would be, but if something happened it would be a matter of simply transferring them out.
However like you said the real issue is why the EMH, why put what was the greatest breakthrough in Holographic technology and what was the most sophisticated piece of medical hardware to work in the most menial of tasks, why not simply make a basic Hologram like those in "Flesh and Blood", and if it's a matter of the Mark I being obsolete, why not update them?
"I think, when one has been angry for a very long time, one gets used to it. And it becomes comfortable like…like old leather. And finally… it becomes so familiar that one can't remember feeling any other way."
Link8909 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:34 am
Really enjoyed this look at Holographic ethics, thank you Chuck for reposting and updating the video.
Senko wrote: ↑Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:04 am
I do feel compelled to point out there's been plenty of hints throughout the series that the star trek computers may be self aware to some degree or another. Controlling flight, giving birth, gel packs, having sex with Giordi "rolls eyes". So the question of whether holograms can be considered sentient/sapient when the computer itself isn't needs to address the question of whether the computer is and is just bounded by its own restrictions and programs a self awareness that only comes out in rare cases like Moriarty.
I too would be interested in seeing this discussion addressed to other series like Red Dwarf and their holograms.
The question people seem mostly to be ignoring in my opinion is not whether holograms are sapient but WHY was the EMH MK 1's assigned to hand mine Dilithium. This can't be an efficient means of doing so especially with the technology available you'd have to install holographic emitters in every single mine shaft to allow them to operate there at least till the mobile emitter became common place. Add to that these are medical programs not mining programs this is not an area where they have a valid skill set
So why were they assigned to this job as opposed to just being deleted in batch lots? If they aren't self aware and sapient then deleting them is no more harmful than deleting any other hologram yet starfleet didn't delete them when they became obsolete, they didn't even turn them off. Instead they assigned them to perform other tasks while leaving them running. The only reason I can see is that they are considered sapient beings who deletion would be the equivilent of killing, or bad writing.
I think there might be some good reasons for using Holograms for Mining, they might have had something similar to the Holographic Projector that was beamed down to the planet in "Flesh and Blood", and not only with the factor of Holograms not being hindered by thing that humans would be, but if something happened it would be a matter of simply transferring them out.
However like you said the real issue is why the EMH, why put what was the greatest breakthrough in Holographic technology and what was the most sophisticated piece of medical hardware to work in the most menial of tasks, why not simply make a basic Hologram like those in "Flesh and Blood", and if it's a matter of the Mark I being obsolete, why not update them?
I agree with you about mining. In fact, I would say that Star Trek holograms are far superior to androids as it is impossible to damage one. You can bury a hologram under a thousand tons of rubble or fire phasers at him all day and as long as the holo-emitter is doing fine so will he.
I personally think though that there is a single reason alone why the EMH ended up mining dilithium: the director thought that it would make for a cool closing shot to have fifty Doctors in a cave. I don't think any worldbuilding was really considered.
Tbh though this also leads into something that has always bothered me: why was the EMH being grumpy ever a problem? Why was ''Extremely Marginal Housecalls'' ever a nickname? The Doctor was designed to be only occasionally turned on. That is why he literally opens up with the line ''please state the nature of the medical emergency''. His first scenes in ''Caretaker'' where is activated because the original medical crew had been killed is exactly the kind of situation that he was designed for and in a normal situation Voyager would have flown to a starbase for replacements and the Doctor would have been turned off again.
Honestly - I think the Federation must be full of overly-sensitive whining crybabies if having a surly yet temporary hologram treat you is enough to bother you to the point that you are willing to withdraw the whole line from service. Especially as PIC would later show that within a few years of this there is a mass production medical hologram in service.
