Avatar, The Laster Airbender: Fire

[Dragon Ball Fan]

maybe but if I'm not misinterpreting Taoism, then Ozi's mere existence is an imbalance and he should be destroyed to bring balance.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Ozai technically gave up his fire lord position with that "Phoenix King" title. He threw most of his influence behind the earth-genocide gambit, then that failed and he was trounced by a twelve-year-old. I also think right to rule in the fire nation might be tied to firebending itself. It would explain why Zuko was such a dissappointment to his father.

[Attercob]

and what about the Taoism stuff I mentioned, or am I taking the "destroying evil" part of that philosophy to literally?

I was a little confused by that, because that wasn't ever my understanding of taoism, which has less to do with "balance" as it does with "flow". In Taoism you strive to understand "the way" of the world and you move with it, rather than oppose it or struggle against it. The idea of having to strike down evil that threatens some idea of a "balance" seems to me as somewhat oppositional, and therefore not likely to be a taoist doctrine. But I could be wrong.

In anycase it seemed to me the show was at least attempting to throw in several different philosophical perspectives, so i'm not sure you can criticize the show for not favoring one in particular.

[Attercob]

Ozai technically gave up his fire lord position with that "Phoenix King" title. He threw most of his influence behind the earth-genocide gambit, then that failed and he was trounced by a twelve-year-old. I also think right to rule in the fire nation might be tied to firebending itself. It would explain why Zuko was such a disappointment to his father.

I think you're right. The whole point to the Agni-Kai is a kind of Might-Makes-Right challenge. In order to be an effective ruler, you need to be good enough at firebending to not lose to an Agni Kai challenge.

I also suspect that the fire nation as a whole is very traditionalistic, and are willing to accept changes in rulership, so long as they follow the correct rules. The whole ascension to the "Phoenix King" might have seemed a little suspicious to the fire nation people, as it's a self-appointed title that was literally just invented. And you could make a compelling case that Azula forfeited the Agni-Kai with Zuko, when she deliberately attacked a bystander. And Iroh's main reason for not challenging Ozai for the throne was because he was concerned about the bad political optics of that move. Zuko's legitimate claim to the throne made his challenge to Azula much more credible to the people of the FireNation.

[AllanO]

When someone poses a contrived dilemma to you, the appealing answer is usually to pick a third option and that is what most dramatic works do. Remember if you can only take one thing out of your burning house, remove the fire. On that point Aang's solution to the dilemma seems par for the course.

I actually think as depicted killing Ozai would have been less effective then what happened. If Aang had killed him I am not sure it would be much different then if Iroh did, propagandists could have said he beat him via some trickier or subterfuge and bide there time until Zuko died or was deposed and reinstitute the generations long crusade to establish total fire nation dominance over the globe, other firelords had died and the crusade had continued, the fire nation apparently embraced a campaign to either capture the Avatar or end the cycle of reincarnation etc. Having Ozai hang around depowered as a low rent Grima Wormtongue, presumably put on trial and so on, shows how bankrupt his might makes right philosophy was, without his bending he apparently becomes a shell of the man he once was unable to lead a coup etc. he is a living example of just how wrong the whole crusade was, much better than a martyr to the cause.

The ending is somewhat out of nowhere, but the show could be a bit over subtle in its foreshadowing. So the disappearance of Zuko's mother is mentioned in flashback what in season 2 and then a huge sequel hook is dropped at the end (picked up in the second comic the Search if I understand right). Personally I was intrigued just by that hint in the 2nd season, but Lizuka was not primed for it. Also not actually the first thing out of nowhere they threw as the giant tree that hints at finding Toph is unforeshadowed. At least we get a picture of a lionturtle in the Library...

In terms of philosophy I always thought of Aang as the answer to the question, what if the Dalai Lama had super power. So Aang's philosophy of all life being sacred etc. makes sense in that context, he is in many ways a Buddhist.

In terms of Taoist influences, keeping in mind that the Tao that can be expressed is not the eternal Tao and that the more you talk about the Tao the less you know. I would have said some aspects of the show's world reflect a Taoist attitude, so Toph learning metal bending by finding the bits of Earth in metal reminds one of the specs of yin in yang and yang in yin in the yin yang symbol (also the unity of opposites that Taoism tend to invoke, acknowledging beauty, posits ugliness etc.). In terms of balance traditional Chinese medicine posits that imbalance in yin and yang causes disease, and the whole yin and yang thing is kind of central to Taoism as suggested by the yin and yang system being the symbol of Taoism. Likewise the four nations being in balance, a place for everyone and everyone in their place, seems to line up with that medical view of balance, where you can have an excess (the fire nation domination of the world) or a deficiency (the lack of Air nomads) that threatens the proper functioning of the world. Of course such concepts of balance occur in all sorts of contexts, for example ancient European humoreal medicine...

To me Aang does restore balance, just not in the way he or his predecessors expected. The concept to me of the Avatar, especially as elaborated in Korra, is that the individual who is imbued with the power of the Avatar and the access to past lives etc. has to combine all that with their own judgement to decided what to do, the individual is not just a robot to be controlled by those perfect forces, because they are not perfect...

[TrueMetis]

Ozai technically gave up his fire lord position with that "Phoenix King" title. He threw most of his influence behind the earth-genocide gambit, then that failed and he was trounced by a twelve-year-old. I also think right to rule in the fire nation might be tied to firebending itself. It would explain why Zuko was such a dissappointment to his father.

Right and that will probably work for a fair chunk of the citizenry of the Fire Nation. But for the people with power, who are invested in the war. They aren't going to give a shit. Ozai favoured and promoted guys like Zhao, and got rid of guys like Jeong Jeong, most of whom wouldn't have survived to flee. You really think they're going to give a shit about any of that in the face of being told they can't keep fighting the war they were winning?

[AllanO]

Right and that will probably work for a fair chunk of the citizenry of the Fire Nation. But for the people with power, who are invested in the war. They aren't going to give a shit. Ozai favoured and promoted guys like Zhao, and got rid of guys like Jeong Jeong, most of whom wouldn't have survived to flee. You really think they're going to give a shit about any of that in the face of being told they can't keep fighting the war they were winning?

An interesting point was whether they were winning after they lost the advantage of Sozin's comet.

The Ozai burn everything plan came from continued rebellion in the Earth Kingdom against Fire nation occupation. We know Omashu and Ba-Sing-Se had been liberated. So there were some pretty heavy centres of resistance. Zuko almost immediately was releasing captured POWs like the Kyoshi warriors, Koga and the rest of the Southern Water tribe warriors etc. so even more resistance. The Northern Water kingdom as far as we know was still in play and presented a fearsome ability to resist the fire nation etc. Continued war of expansion might have proved very costly and ineffective for the Fire nation undermining the authority of the war camp if they pursued it. Especially as we can see that internally the Fire nation was suffering under the constant warfare (that deprived fishing village in Season 3). I think the appeal of the peace camp would have been really strong, both among the general citizenry and the elite allowing Zuko a clear path to successfully ending the war...

[TrueMetis]

Right and that will probably work for a fair chunk of the citizenry of the Fire Nation. But for the people with power, who are invested in the war. They aren't going to give a shit. Ozai favoured and promoted guys like Zhao, and got rid of guys like Jeong Jeong, most of whom wouldn't have survived to flee. You really think they're going to give a shit about any of that in the face of being told they can't keep fighting the war they were winning?

An interesting point was whether they were winning after they lost the advantage of Sozin's comet.

The Ozai burn everything plan came from continued rebellion in the Earth Kingdom against Fire nation occupation. We know Omashu and Ba-Sing-Se had been liberated. So there were some pretty heavy centres of resistance. Zuko almost immediately was releasing captured POWs like the Kyoshi warriors, Koga and the rest of the Southern Water tribe warriors etc. so even more resistance. The Northern Water kingdom as far as we know was still in play and presented a fearsome ability to resist the fire nation etc. Continued war of expansion might have proved very costly and ineffective for the Fire nation undermining the authority of the war camp if they pursued it. Especially as we can see that internally the Fire nation was suffering under the constant warfare (that deprived fishing village in Season 3). I think the appeal of the peace camp would have been really strong, both among the general citizenry and the elite allowing Zuko a clear path to successfully ending the war...

They were. The Earth Kingdoms administration had been gutted, Omashu may be okay but without anyone to take control or the Dai Li to maintain order anarchy will rule in Be Sing Se, and without those resources the Earth Kingdoms ability to fight is severely diminished. The Kyoshi warriors and SWT men is like 50 people. The NWT is fucking useless, they weren't able to defend themselves against the Fire Nation and sure as hell aren't going they sure as hell aren't going offensive (fearsome ability to resist? They were losing badly).

Sozin's comet wasn't "we need this to win" they had already won. Sozin's comet was "you know what screw it, let's take this from normal conquest and being power hungry enough to want to rule the world to scorched-earth genocide just because." The comet plan was nothing but weird out of no-where let's make Ozai an actual Nazi instead of a run of the mill fascist.

[AllanO]

They were. The Earth Kingdoms administration had been gutted, Omashu may be okay but without anyone to take control or the Dai Li to maintain order anarchy will rule in Be Sing Se, and without those resources the Earth Kingdoms ability to fight is severely diminished. The Kyoshi warriors and SWT men is like 50 people. The NWT is fucking useless, they weren't able to defend themselves against the Fire Nation and sure as hell aren't going they sure as hell aren't going offensive (fearsome ability to resist? They were losing badly).

Sozin's comet wasn't "we need this to win" they had already won. Sozin's comet was "you know what screw it, let's take this from normal conquest and being power hungry enough to want to rule the world to scorched-earth genocide just because." The comet plan was nothing but weird out of no-where let's make Ozai an actual Nazi instead of a run of the mill fascist.

The only reason a large fire nation navy had a real chance of beating the Northern Water Tribe was due to Zhao killing the moon, the Water Tribe's own defenders would have kept them at bay seemingly indefinitely otherwise. The Fire nation never tries to conquer them later apparently or even harass them as they do the Southern Tribe. So I stand by my statement, but I never saw them going on the offensive, but by providing aid and protection to those on the offensive that would be a serious problem for the Fire nation...

With regards to the Earth Kingdom, winning is one thing, holding on to territory is another. I think we have as much if not more reason to think the Fire Nation will have trouble holding on to territory as that it won't. I really don't see why your so sure things are one way, when we only see a very limited sample of what is going on and what we do see is easily supports it being another way.

Also remember the premise is that Zuko releases all the POWs including all the Earth Kingdom types and they at least have a few months to reorganize. The Earth Kingdom would not have only hardened regular veterans but also lots of hardened guerrilla fighters on its side, it might lack internal organization or it might reconstitute itself handily before the Fire nation can regroup for an attack.

The Fire nation started the war by wiping out the Air Nomads (also with the help of the comet), I don't think the genocidal rampage thing was that out of left field... [edit also it seems like you are just assuming the Earth Kingdom resistance is no big thing against the dialogue etc. in the show, what if it was a big thing surely that would help explain Ozai's plan...]

[TrueMetis]

They were. The Earth Kingdoms administration had been gutted, Omashu may be okay but without anyone to take control or the Dai Li to maintain order anarchy will rule in Be Sing Se, and without those resources the Earth Kingdoms ability to fight is severely diminished. The Kyoshi warriors and SWT men is like 50 people. The NWT is fucking useless, they weren't able to defend themselves against the Fire Nation and sure as hell aren't going they sure as hell aren't going offensive (fearsome ability to resist? They were losing badly).

Sozin's comet wasn't "we need this to win" they had already won. Sozin's comet was "you know what screw it, let's take this from normal conquest and being power hungry enough to want to rule the world to scorched-earth genocide just because." The comet plan was nothing but weird out of no-where let's make Ozai an actual Nazi instead of a run of the mill fascist.

The only reason a large fire nation navy had a real chance of beating the Northern Water Tribe was due to Zhao killing the moon, the Water Tribe's own defenders would have kept them at bay seemingly indefinitely otherwise. The Fire nation never tries to conquer them later apparently or even harass them as they do the Southern Tribe. So I stand by my statement, but I never saw them going on the offensive, but by providing aid and protection to those on the offensive that would be a serious problem for the Fire nation...

No dude, they were winning up until that point. If you think what we saw as the Fire Nation easily breached their walls and got their highest ranking officer into the NWT's most sacred site was the Fire Nation being kept "at bay" then I don't know what to tell you. The only reason the "NWT" won was because Koizilla.

And the reason no one tries to conquer them again is because no one but Zhao had a reason to. The NWT is in that weird place where it's not actually a threat, therefore there's little point in attacking it, but it's just strong enough that little raids like the one that devastated the SWT won't work. The Fire Nation attacking the NWT again would be like in the middle of WW2 Germany sending a significant portion of it's navy to conquer Chile. It's just not worth it unless you're a whack job with delusions of grandeur who thinks this will make him a name that will never be forgotten.

With regards to the Earth Kingdom, winning is one thing, holding on to territory is another. I think we have as much if not more reason to think the Fire Nation will have trouble holding on to territory as that it won't. I really don't see why your so sure things are one way, when we only see a very limited sample of what is going on and what we do see is easily supports it being another way.

No it doesn't. Everything we see shows that the Fire Nation has little to no problem holding the territory it has captured. I mean it's managed with little problem for a hundred years. What's the sum total of resistance to the FN we see? Tyro's band of civilians, Jet and his bunch of teenagers, and some of Omashu's guard. Now we are told that their are groups having some success in some areas in the final war meeting when General Shinu wants to send some reinforcements in, but he's not acting like this is going to be a big deal. It's basically "Hey so capturing the entire rest of the Earth Kingdom is taking up more manpower than we thought it would, think we can send in some more people to deal with the troublemakers?" Then Zuko gives us some bullshit that's contradicted by what we've actually seen and Azula and Ozai then jump to the conclusion that they should burn everything cause they're fucking nuts.

Also remember the premise is that Zuko releases all the POWs including all the Earth Kingdom types and they at least have a few months to reorganize. The Earth Kingdom would not have only hardened regular veterans but also lots of hardened guerrilla fighters on its side, it might lack internal organization or it might reconstitute itself handily before the Fire nation can regroup for an attack.

No, that's not the premise. The premise was was that the Fire Nation was winning in spite of losing the advantage of Sozin's comet and a couple of defeats and the that people in the Fire Nation (and the military leaders especially) aren't going to be happy to have gone from winning to their Fire Lord capitulating all in a couple of days. There's no "give the Earth Kingdom time to regroup" implied there. All the Fire Nation citizenry are going to know is that on the day of the comet they were winning, indeed they had in fact basically won, and then the comet was over and they're being told that the war is over and they need to start giving shit back.

And even if we give the few months it doesn't really matter because the people of the Fire Nation have a hundred years of evidence that they can take the Earth Kingdom.

Look, let me put it this way. Germany got crushed during WW1. Like the Entente Powers could have done literally anything they wanted to the country in the aftermath and Germany would have been able to do nothing about it because it's ability to make war was non-existent, and the only reason that the Entente Powers didn't have a victory parade through Berlin is because the German government realized how screwed they were and surrendered before the allies got there. However, there was in the aftermath of WW1 a very strong belief that Germany's victory was stolen from them, not helped by calling the end of the war an armistice which implies simply an end to the fighting rather than one side getting it's ass kicked. Or by the propaganda that was published during the war that lied about just how badly Germany was doing. This false belief was critical in causing WW2. (Germany's actually a pretty dead on example, since some of the early war propaganda to get people to fight was about how superior Germany's culture and morals were, hey does that sound familiar?)

Now imagine a similar country, but their belief that they were winning and victory was stolen from them is essentially correct. Because their current leader sided with the enemy to defeat their old leader, and has now taken control and made them stop fighting. How secure do you think that leaders power is going to be? Even the citizenry that wanted the war to stop are going to be livid. And through all that, the former leader is still alive to be used as at a minimum a figurehead to rally behind.

Basically imagine that WW1 happened exactly the way it did, except the treaty that ends the war says Germany won, because the leadership of the Entente Powers was captured and replaced by people loyal to Germany. Those people would be dragged out into the street and torn apart by an angry mob, and the Entente Powers militaries are immediately going to go back to kicking the shit out of Germany.

The Fire nation started the war by wiping out the Air Nomads (also with the help of the comet), I don't think the genocidal rampage thing was that out of left field... [edit also it seems like you are just assuming the Earth Kingdom resistance is no big thing against the dialogue etc. in the show, what if it was a big thing surely that would help explain Ozai's plan...]

There's a bit of a difference between Sozin's "I think I can make the world better, the only thing stopping me from doing so is the avatar and I need to kill the Air Nomads to kill him" craziness, and Ozai's "hahahaha burn everything! including a ton of my own soldiers!" insanity. (Which is really the point Zuko should hammer if he does want to prevent a coup and the continuation of the war)