The Clone Wars - Revenge

[Winter]

I mean...I'm okay with someone's attitudes adjusting a bit after 10-15 years. Or whatever spacetime M.A.S.H.es the war out to.

But I think a lot of the camp that says "Clone Wars Maul isn't consistent"...I feel like there's a lot of...projection onto TPM.

Like, I can just as easily write a backstory where it is consistent completely and explains things the movie did not. Here let's do it right now.

Maul is a Sith traditionalist. That's why he cares so much about the Sith having to be pushed underground. He feels the entire conflict, maybe even all the way back to the Great Hyperspace War. He's a ritualist. A monk, in a sense. It's why he's a fighter, it's why he's muscle, it why he has that personal grievance against the Jedi when, really, he doesn't really have a dog in the fight other than the political problem it presents them with. Palpatine wants to operate openly, too. But he seems to look at it as a philosophical conflict, not like he's personally wounded by the situation.

Then Maul gets cut in half and lives on the edges of existence and feeds his hatred. But when he emerges, takes that personal day to hunt Obi-Wan, he is then forced to take perspective. But then that's why it's so important to him to secure a power base. A proper Sith isn't a vagabond. A proper Sith has subjects. A proper Sith has an apprentice. A proper Sith builds, strives for the day they can launch another war against the Jedi. And his frustration at being responsible rather than be self-satisfied chasing Obi-Wan's tail around the galaxy is what makes him more...unstable than in his youth.

But, see what I mean? Maul's character is, at best, poorly defined in TPM. Personally, I think it's pretty non-existent. What people loved about Maul, I think, what how much they didn't know. Like a harem protagonist. Just enough to define him, enough blank to imprint on him.

Again for me, the issue I have is that he's not acting anything like he did in TPM. I'm okay with him talking more but I wish he acted more cold, more stoic, like he did in TPM and I find his acting in CW very over the top. I don't mind it when he's acting like a crazy person he's likely been in pain after getting cut in half but after that he's suppose to be reset back to factory settings only for him to ham it up at every opportunity.

I've actually been thinking of doing a article on how characters change over the years when they entire pop culture and go through several writers hands. For example I saw someone make a video essay about how Spider-man: Homecoming wasn't a good Spider-Man movie as it didn't really fit any of the characters usual tropes. I for one feel it is the best SM movie because while Peter isn't a hopeless loser I do feel it keeps true to who is at his core. He tries to do the right thing even when it costs him personal happiness and does what he can to take responsibility for his actions and powers.

Now onto what you said that in TPM Maul had little in the way of an actual personality I respectfully disagree. Maul is stoic and unfeeling towards those he is assigned to kill but loves hurting or killing he's enemy which is shown entirely through his facial expression and nothing more. By Lucas' own admission he's not very good at dialogue but as Chuck pointed out he is a good ideas man and when he gets something right he really gets it right and Maul is the best example of Lucas' strangth as a writer, IMO.

You just need to look at him and you already know everything there is to know about him. He's an evil, unfeeling, single minded killing machine. In CW and other works that tried to add to him try to make him more complex but IMHO they just ended up making him more complected. His goals are largely unrelated to one another, as I've said before, seem to be there more to give him something to do then it is to provide any real character development.

Like I said, we don't really learn that much about Maul in CW then we did in TPM. We don't really know if he and Savage are brothers or if that was just the Mother spinning a story for her own plan, why he wants to take over the galaxy or why he wants Ezra as an apprentice.

To show what I'm talking about let's look at Blue and Yellow Diamond from Steven Universe. Everything they do from seasons 2 all the way to season 5 is motivated by their desire to get revenge for the death of their sister or to save their home world which is why they're so fixated on Earth because it is where sister, Pink Diamond, was killed and is a valuable resource for that can help their world. This isn't made clear at first but as the series goes on and we learn more about these two we learn the how and the why and it all fits together.

But with Maul, and this also extends to Kylo Ren from the current films, we know what their main goal is, revenge against those who wronged them. However, they do little to further that goal and both of them wanting to take over the galaxy doesn't really have anything to do with their, supposedly, main goal. What does Maul and Ren's desire to kill someone have to do with them taking over the known galaxy and why do they want it.

It makes sense for villains like Palpatine or Thrawn as the former's only motivation is to have all the power he can get and will destroy anything that threatens that power. While the latter feels he can do a better job then the New Republic and believes that the NR method is sloppy and poorly thought-out.

With both Maul and Ren trying to take over the galaxy I'm reminded of this quote from Doctor Who The Pirate Planet "You don't want to take over the universe, do you? No. You wouldn't know what to do with it, beyond shout at it. " And that's the issue I have with Maul, he doesn't really seem to have a arc but rather things happen to him and none of it really advances his ultimate goal and in fact more sidetracks him from said goal. That's how I see it anyway.

[MyUserName]

Actually, Maul was not stoic at all in Phantom Menace. When he attacked Qui-Gon, he lets out a vicious battle cry, and originally he was meant to try to force leap onto the ship after Qui-Gon, but got surprised by Kenobi and didn't have a chance to protect himself from being force shoved off the boarding ramp. This was in the novelization.

Also, in the fight on Naboo, when the shields are separating him and Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon meditates to build up his strength while Maul slashes at the shield and paces like a predator.

Lastly, while Kenobi is hanging from the ledge, Maul is slashing at the platform, trying to dislodge Kenobi and confirm his kill.

Maul was always supposed to be a boiling engine of rage and dark side power, this is what differentiates him from Dooku, and the contrast between the two is so interesting I wish they had more time to interact rather than their brief encounter in Son of Dathomir.

[SuccubusYuri]

Again for me, the issue I have is that he's not acting anything like he did in TPM. I'm okay with him talking more but I wish he acted more cold, more stoic, like he did in TPM

You could say cold and stoic.

I'd say like a disinterested teenager visiting his aunt's place because no one understands things, man.

[Seaward]

Actually, Maul was not stoic at all in Phantom Menace. When he attacked Qui-Gon, he lets out a vicious battle cry, and originally he was meant to try to force leap onto the ship after Qui-Gon, but got surprised by Kenobi and didn't have a chance to protect himself from being force shoved off the boarding ramp. This was in the novelization.

Also, in the fight on Naboo, when the shields are separating him and Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon meditates to build up his strength while Maul slashes at the shield and paces like a predator.

Lastly, while Kenobi is hanging from the ledge, Maul is slashing at the platform, trying to dislodge Kenobi and confirm his kill.

Vicious battle cry? If you're talking about the attack on Tatooine, I've checked that scene and I don't note a battle cry. There's the sound of the bike and Qui-Gon yelling "Go!" to Anakin, but that's it. I don't see why Force-jumping after Qui-Gon invalidates the idea that he's stoic, nor him testing the forcefield once before shutting his saber down because he knows he can't breach it.

[Madner Kami]

Actually, Maul was not stoic at all in Phantom Menace. When he attacked Qui-Gon, he lets out a vicious battle cry, and originally he was meant to try to force leap onto the ship after Qui-Gon, but got surprised by Kenobi and didn't have a chance to protect himself from being force shoved off the boarding ramp. This was in the novelization.

Also, in the fight on Naboo, when the shields are separating him and Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon meditates to build up his strength while Maul slashes at the shield and paces like a predator.

Lastly, while Kenobi is hanging from the ledge, Maul is slashing at the platform, trying to dislodge Kenobi and confirm his kill.

Vicious battle cry? If you're talking about the attack on Tatooine, I've checked that scene and I don't note a battle cry. There's the sound of the bike and Qui-Gon yelling "Go!" to Anakin, but that's it. I don't see why Force-jumping after Qui-Gon invalidates the idea that he's stoic, nor him testing the forcefield once before shutting his saber down because he knows he can't breach it.

I guess he conflates whatever happened in the novelization with what happened in the movie. In the later, Maul was an agressive but target-focused killer who enjoyed the fight or dominating his foe. I have no idea what he was in the novelization, but it seems to be quite different to the character the majority knows.

[Darth Wedgius]

So it depends on how you interpreted Maul in the movie whether or not you think that afterwards he was, um, half the villain he used to be?

[Robovski]

So it depends on how you interpreted Maul in the movie whether or not you think that afterwards he was, um, half the villain he used to be?

Maybe they thought his role had been cut short? The way he had been built up in the advertising certainly left us feeling the character had been cut off at the legs; not measuring up to expectations.

[Eishtmo]

Maybe they thought his role had been cut short? The way he had been built up in the advertising certainly left us feeling the character had been cut off at the legs; not measuring up to expectations.

. . .

Go to your room. You know what you did.

[Winter]

Maybe they thought his role had been cut short? The way he had been built up in the advertising certainly left us feeling the character had been cut off at the legs; not measuring up to expectations.

. . .

Go to your room. You know what you did.

Why are you trying to cut this conversation short, it wasn't even half done. (I REGRET NOTHING!!!)

[Trinary]

[/quote]So he has to be dumb because he is not big on talking?[/quote]

It's not about how much he speaks, but his actions throughout "Clone Wars." When I think of the Sith--striking from the shadows, subtly manipulating events, plotting schemes that last entire lifetimes, even a millennium--I can never see Maul pulling that off. He's impetuous, hot-headed and doesn't look before he leaps. Even getting cut in half did little to temper him.

I could never picture him ever defeating Sidious and becoming the Master Sith himself. To me, Palpatine/Sidious always intended for him to be a place-holder until something else came along; his strong-right arm and enforcer, but not a true successor.

Don't misunderstand. Maul is a pretty impressive character, a juggernaught of strength, speed and skill, a (near) peerless warrior. There's a lot of potential for a character like that. But when they tried to play up him as a Sith menace when he returned, it felt like they were taking him out of his wheelhouse. Being a warrior is just one side of being Sith. Hell, even Darth Malak could do that stuff. But as for the rest ... Maul never seemed to live up to the full potential of the Sith.

His plans in "Clone Wars" are pretty basic and obvious. Want to draw Obi-Wan out? Just kidnap some random people, make a big open demand threatening them so the ENTIRE Jedi Order knows he's around--and then kill the hostages. His plan for taking over the criminal underworld? Eh, just kill all the head guys and say he's in charge now. The stuff with the Death Watch wasn't much better. Every problem starts and ends with the point of his lightsaber.

That makes for an impressive warrior, but for a Sith? His attempts at forming a new Sith order with him as the Master and Savage as the Apprentice came off like a little kid imitating what his parents do without really understanding it.