Babylon 5: A Race Through Dark Places

[Nealithi]

I won't argue that the telepath story was handled well but I would like to point out a few things. First, they didn't kick Lyta out on the street. They moved her to smaller quarters but its implied that they are still waving the rent since she doesn't have a job or income (you're still free to argue that its a dick move). Second she didn't rejoin the corp in secret as that would have kind of defeated the whole point in rejoining in the first place (as no company was willing to hire a non corp approved tp). Third, Sheridan "sits on his ass" because he feels interfering with how EarthGov runs things again would be "going to far" for many people after what he had already done. We don't get any grand scene of it cause Sheridan already knows that it would likely backfire horribly so having someone point out what he already knows would come across as padding in a storyline that was already having problems due to being stretched out.

Considering all the work Lyta did for them Sheridan could simply have hired her to a staff position and paid for her room. If they are really so expensive no one can afford them, why are no aliens apparently in down below?

[Aotrs Commander]

Fun fact: the whole Ivanova/Talia thing COMPLETELY went over my head the first time I saw the show (so, when I was about fourteen-fifteen). (And I was not a particularly unobservant teenager, it was just kinda subtle)

When I watched it again as an adult, I was like "OH, when she said 'I think I loved Talia,' to Delenn in that Mimbari ritual that one time, she didn't mean PLATONICALLY. The hell did I miss that before...?"

Kind of sad they had to make it that subtle.



Bester was a fantastic villain, the kind you just love to hate. Walter Koenig did a fantastic job (especially as at the time, I was pretty much the middle of my biggest Star Trek phase and Chekov was probably my favourite of ToS).

[Nevix]

I have a theory that I didn't think of when I first watched this episode.

It's possible that the deception at the end of the episode didn't work on Bester, or that he let it work so that the telepaths would get away.

[RobbyB1982]

Fun fact: the whole Ivanova/Talia thing COMPLETELY went over my head the first time I saw the show (so, when I was about fourteen-fifteen). (And I was not a particularly unobservant teenager, it was just kinda subtle)

When I watched it again as an adult, I was like "OH, when she said 'I think I loved Talia,' to Delenn in that Mimbari ritual that one time, she didn't mean PLATONICALLY. The hell did I miss that before...?"

Kind of sad they had to make it that subtle.

Well, had Andrea Thompson not demanded more screen time (in an ensemble show) and stuck around the whole five years, they probably would have gotten a little more explicit about it somewhere along the way. Though even had she stuck around, the traitor alternate personality thing might have still been part of her plotline. Kosh took those brain scans of her earlier after all.



But yeah, the gay stuff had to be hidden back then. Buffy had to really cheat to get Tara and Willow kiss on screen.... by putting the scene in the middle of a really horrific episode that the censors had other things to complain about. And Xena and Gabrielle had to wait until the final episode for their kissy moment. And that still exists today, look how crazy super subtle Khorra had to play with its lead and Asami. (Meanwhile gay male characters are usually shown as extremely over the top stereotypes.

Society will get better about this in time, it's already better than it was 20 years ago. But... needs time.

[Mecha82]

That's interesting. I didn't know that Ivanova and Talia were supposed to be lesbian couple. It does explain some things about both Ivanova and Talia. Based on that they ended up writing Ivanova as bi considering how she took death of Marcus Cole. Leading her being made captain of that new EA destroyer at end of season 4.

[Aotrs Commander]

Fun fact: the whole Ivanova/Talia thing COMPLETELY went over my head the first time I saw the show (so, when I was about fourteen-fifteen). (And I was not a particularly unobservant teenager, it was just kinda subtle)

When I watched it again as an adult, I was like "OH, when she said 'I think I loved Talia,' to Delenn in that Mimbari ritual that one time, she didn't mean PLATONICALLY. The hell did I miss that before...?"

Kind of sad they had to make it that subtle.

But yeah, the gay stuff had to be hidden back then. Buffy had to really cheat to get Tara and Willow kiss on screen.... by putting the scene in the middle of a really horrific episode that the censors had other things to complain about. And Xena and Gabrielle had to wait until the final episode for their kissy moment. And that still exists today, look how crazy super subtle Khorra had to play with its lead and Asami. (Meanwhile gay male characters are usually shown as extremely over the top stereotypes.

Society will get better about this in time, it's already better than it was 20 years ago. But... needs time.

It was a little easier (or at least done vastly less subtly) in those latter two shows, though. But even the difference of this episode (what, '95) to Willow and Tara (which was, what, season, 5 Buffy, so about 2000-ish (and Xena finished about the same time), there there is about half a decade where attitudes had softened up, a bit, I think.

Mind you, again, compare Korra (I STILL haven't watched the last two seasons that I have on DVD, though the internet has now long-sinze spoiled what might have been a nice surprise - but probably because it IS a big deal in "nominally-for-children" TV) to (surprisingly) The Loud House (which is even on Nickedeon and stuff) and even more overtly, new She-Ra (without spoilers ('cos I'm not sure how to tag 'em here and it's first thing in the morning...)but with particular emphasis on the final episode of the second season; so the change is coming in, rooted at the base level.

That's interesting. I didn't know that Ivanova and Talia were supposed to be lesbian couple.

I'm glad it wasn't just me, then...!

[Steve]

I won't argue that the telepath story was handled well but I would like to point out a few things. First, they didn't kick Lyta out on the street. They moved her to smaller quarters but its implied that they are still waving the rent since she doesn't have a job or income (you're still free to argue that its a dick move).

That's basically what I argued. It was a dick move.

Second she didn't rejoin the corp in secret as that would have kind of defeated the whole point in rejoining in the first place (as no company was willing to hire a non corp approved tp).

I misspoke. She was brought back in and listed as a deep cover operative, so she wouldn't be held to any of the regular Corps chain of command, but it did mean that prospective employers could run her name and get a positive response on whether she could be hired. And, as was stated, she had to wear the uniform and gloves again, which she clearly hated.

Third, Sheridan "sits on his ass" because he feels interfering with how EarthGov runs things again would be "going to far" for many people after what he had already done. We don't get any grand scene of it cause Sheridan already knows that it would likely backfire horribly so having someone point out what he already knows would come across as padding in a storyline that was already having problems due to being stretched out.

Except you're inferring all of that based on how you interpret the story and Sheridan's motivations. By not explaining why the President of the InterStellar Alliance is allowing people under his personal protection to be hunted down by their own government, it makes Sheridan look either apathetic or powerless. If they'd given just a brief scene explaining why Sheridan feels he can't follow through on that protection, it would have ameliorated it.

Your explanation, after all, begs the question of why he bothered offering protection at all, if he's so worried that it would be "going too far". If he never intended to follow up on it, he could have at least sent them on to somewhere like Minbar, or another world outside of theoretical Earth law.

[Steve]

And yeah, I kinda missed the Ivanova/Talia thing too.

[cdrood]

we know he is a loving husband. So that his only weakness is his wife and children. Something Sheridan exploited in later season

Actually, he stated his marriage was a sham, arranged by the Corps. He had a mistress whom he was legitimately in love with, but she refused to join and got altered to become a Shadow vessel pilot.

The thing about Bester is he IS a villain. He believes he's right and only cares about telepaths, but even when it comes to them, he only cares about those who toe the line. He's really more like a Death Eater from Harry Potter.

[Marveryn]

we know he is a loving husband. So that his only weakness is his wife and children. Something Sheridan exploited in later season

Actually, he stated his marriage was a sham, arranged by the Corps. He had a mistress whom he was legitimately in love with, but she refused to join and got altered to become a Shadow vessel pilot.

The thing about Bester is he IS a villain. He believes he's right and only cares about telepaths, but even when it comes to them, he only cares about those who toe the line. He's really more like a Death Eater from Harry Potter.

oops. I knew about that episode for some reason in my head I was thinking it was his wife. That was the person I was thinking about when I consider he love his wife. When it was his mistress that he had the most caring toward