DS9 - Hard Time

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I thought it'd be interesting to compare this episode with Voyager's The Chute, since they demonstrate the two shows differing approaches to what is effectively the exact same premise: a main character trapped in an alien prison, and losing their humanity as a consequence of the experience. Both episodes also had the same writing challenge: said character can't actually spend the months or years in prison that it would take for that to happen. Both shows solved this problem with treknobabble, but as with everything else, they did so completely differently.

I wouldn't really call it a writing challenge so much since they did that same mechanism almost 4 years prior in TNG.

[Durandal_1707]

Is there a way to get the video to play full screen with the new player? I can't seem to find one.

[CrypticMirror]

Reset button at its finest.

...

And it does not matter. Not one damn bit. O'Brien next week is the same man as O'Brien the week before.

And thank goodness for it. I want to see our characters pop in, have an adventure or explore an issue then move on, and not have it trail after them with episode after episode after episode of wangst and whinging and staring blankly into space for minutes on end in lieu of actual dialogue, or pointless bloody manufactured conflict for conflict's sake; lingering like catshit that has worked itself into the carpet underneath the sofa. This is why DS9 is better than every serialised sf show on tv today and, even though it wasn't as bad as modern serialised tv shows, Babylon 5 too. Even the latter dragged some stuff out far too long, and let it overflow in unpleasant ways into ongoing characterisation. Episodic tv shows were the best by far.

As to O'Brien, a thing left unexplored is the implication that of course he was going to get angry and kill his cellmate. That was part of the punishment, he had zero free will in it. He has no need for self loathing, it was all out of his control. There is no need for him to worry that he's been sold a lie about humanity being better in his time. There is no hope for us, but there is for him.

[clearspira]

Is there a way to get the video to play full screen with the new player? I can't seem to find one.

I was wondering that too.

If Chuck is reading, I don't mean to complain. It is not by your choice. But it was very hard to watch the video as a result.

[Formless One]

You know, I think I know what's really bugging people about this episode. The episode is supposed to comment on a real problem with prisons, but doesn't sufficiently acknowledge the reality of what was done to O'Brian in the end. This was torture, pure and simple. It isn't the same as a conventional prison sentence, because everything happened in mere moments. No one outside of his prison aged, there was no chance for him to appeal his sentence while in prison (because it wasn't a real prison), nothing. They just implanted the memories and that was that. And moreover, unlike a real prison where the experiences are influenced by your own decisions while in prison, here everything was determined by the people simulating the prison-- even his choice to murder a man. On any other Trek show the captain would be in the thick of it trying to prevent or end the torture, whether by bitch slapping (verbally, literally, or both) the alien prosecutor or finding a more forceful solution that benefits their crew, depending on the show (indeed, the comparison to The Chute is apt because Janeway did break her crewmen out of jail). In fact, the only reason Sisko doesn't do that (bitch slapping people I mean) is that he wasn't there when it happened. Only Kira was, so what the hell? She's a former resistance fighter and O'Brian's friend, why didn't she step into the Kirk role? Anyway, since its a medical procedure, its an inherently unjust form of punishment, and not comparable to the kind of punishment it is trying to simulate. They should have acknowledged that rather than pretending that this is a good analogy for prison.

But even if it was, it highlights that this is how not to write a message episode. The prison being simulated is basically medieval, not modern, which sabotages the message itself. Even the set design looks like a medieval dungeon. The only way the message works is if the message is that solitary confinement is torture, which I suppose is in line with what multiple international organizations have to say on the matter. But the episode is supposed to be about the aftermath of the punishment, and the severity of what happened to O'Brian and the fact that it was unjust on multiple levels (an innocent man being sentenced for a bullshit crime, a justice system that railroad him at a speed that makes the Cardassians look sluggish, and a cruel and unusual punishment simulating a cruel and unusual punishment), means that when he puts a gun to his own head you get the feeling that this isn't the normal result of someone going to prison. This is the result of someone who doesn't know enough about human neurology fucking with his brain. It essentially stops being about the message and becomes a weird kind of torture porn. And if that makes you uneasy, that's because you aren't a psychopath, but I think the episode didn't intend to test the viewer's sense of empathy. It was supposed to be about a character trying to come to grips with the realities of coming home from prison. And it doesn't work because of the limitations of episodic storytelling.

And hey, maybe it would have worked, but not with these characters and not with this setup. Maybe if the setup was Thomas Riker having escaped from a Cardassian prison and having to adjust to the harshness of their penal system. It would at least make it an actual prison and not "Total Recall" but Star Trek. Its comparison to real life prisons would still have been undermined by the fact that the Cardassian justice system was inherently unjust, but at least the audience would have understood that Thomas Riker wasn't exactly an innocent. Indeed, for this premise to work I think the episode needed someone who was guilty of a legitimate crime, and for the injustices he faces to reflect real problems with the penal system of today, not Medieval Europe, and ditch the Hollywood cliches about prisons in favor of more realistic experiences. Since Thomas Riker was in fact a Maquis terrorist, the audience knows that his being sentenced was not inherently unjust, only the treatment he received in prison. This could even add the realistic conflict between Thomas and the DS9 crew that the only reason he isn't being charged by the Federation is that they are sticking it to the Cardassians, and the main cast has to get beyond that in order to start sympathizing with his plight. And of course, it would have the added advantage of finally resolving the events of Defiant.

Or perhaps you don't want to make dealing with injustice part of the story. Fine. Good. Make it Tom Paris's story, since we know that Federation prison is relatively nice and just, a place of rehabilitation presumably, and definitely not torture. Make it about him readjusting to having freedom, even if its the restricted freedom of a stranded starship. Of course, that would require the Voyager writers to give a damn, but we can dream. Point is, the story could have worked if only the writers stopped and asked what they wanted the story to really be about, and how to make that work, as opposed to leaning on technobabble without considering its implications.

[SFDebris]

Is there a way to get the video to play full screen with the new player? I can't seem to find one.

I was wondering that too.

If Chuck is reading, I don't mean to complain. It is not by your choice. But it was very hard to watch the video as a result.

Sorry, it was a last minute attempt to try to at least get the show on the web after another takedown. If I continue with this new host I'll be working more of that kind of thing out.

[Nealithi]

Just my thought on it. But did Geordi being programed by the Romulans actually come up again? I mean it was part of the sequence bringing in Sela. But did him being hurt get brought back?

I think the ongoing counsel sessions are just something in the background. Like people going to the bathroom. We only get information in eating or sleeping if it has some relevance. In this story Chief parsing out food. Sleep because the bed doesn't feel right now.
In another episode or show sleep comes up for being interrupted. We don't see O'Brien getting treatment because to the audience it is not important, and in the background.
Though I wonder if chief O'Brien gets emotionally beatup so often because the writers like having a target. Or because Colm Meaney is just that good an actor that he pulls it off well.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I have enough fun with the speed controls that I didn't even notice the full screen was missing

[Sir Will]

I thought it'd be interesting to compare this episode with Voyager's The Chute, since they demonstrate the two shows differing approaches to what is effectively the exact same premise: a main character trapped in an alien prison, and losing their humanity as a consequence of the experience. Both episodes also had the same writing challenge: said character can't actually spend the months or years in prison that it would take for that to happen. Both shows solved this problem with treknobabble, but as with everything else, they did so completely differently.

Ultimately I think neither was better because they both ended up being meaningless with zero impact on their leads. Different methods, same outcome.

I like O'Brien more than Kim and Paris so DS9 wins only on that point.

Lack of lasting effects aside, I still think this episode does it better. Is a better look at the idea and is more interesting.

[bguy]

Rewatching Babylon 5 recently and the difference is night and day: DS9 is Babylon 5 lite. An inferior copy. Mona Lisa with a moustache.

Look at Franklin's drug problem, Garibaldi's brainwashing, G'kar's eye, Londo's dodgy deals. Things happen and they matter in B5.

Was Babylon 5 really any better about this kind of thing?

Sheridan was physically and mentally tortured in Intersections in Real Time, yet two episodes later he was leading the final attack on Earth and seemed perfectly fine, and I don't believe he ever showed any signs of trauma for the rest of the series.

Garibaldi seemed to be contemplating suicide in The Geometry of Shadows. Yet after that episode he was fine (or at least he was fine until the next Garibaldi must suffer episode.)

IIRC Ivanova only mentioned Talia one time after Talia was effectively murdered.

And was Franklin's stim addiction ever even mentioned again after Shadow Dancing?

I'll grant you that B5 did a good job of continuing to bring up Garibaldi's brainwashing and Londo's dodgy deals, but both of those were connected to ongoing plot lines, so that seemed much more in service of plot than the characters.